SmartTrack (Proposed)

[TheTigerMaster]

To obstruct this because it's no longer "under his roof" would be foolish.

Well this is John Tory, after all.

 

[Cobra]

Crossrail pipe dream renews Mayor John Tory's vision for SmartTrack

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...s-mayor-john-torys-vision-for-smarttrack.html

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

The second one addresses the FAST advocacy group, where Munro not only destroys all their lies but also exposes the people behind it for the Tory shills that they are. This whole scheme stinks to high heaven and appears to be driven entirely by lobbyists, developers and political forces who continue to rabidly defend Smart Track despite all its problems.

So, we're facing a repeat of what happened with Gardiner East is what you're saying.

I think it's time that we fight back by forming our own group called CAST (Citizens Against Stupid Transit).

We should take cues from the recent federal election, and put it in a more positive light. This can easily become a campaign for the Relief Line instead. Metrolinx analysis has showed building DRL-LONG (between Osgoode to Don Mills stations via Queen/King, Pape, and Don Mills) would cost about the same money as SmartTrack, be more frequent, be underground (subways subways subways everyone!) and be more effective at relieving the Yonge line.

Furthermore, the province committed to paying 100% for projects under The Big Move. This includes

• Eglinton Crosstown all the way from Mt Dennis to Pearson (eliminating the need for SmartTrack's Eglinton Spur)
• The Relief Line, from Dundas West to Pape stations via Queen (eliminating the need for SmartTrack south of Bloor)
• Don Mills surface rapid transit, from Pape station to Highway 7 (eliminating the need for SmartTrack along the Stouffville line)

So killing SmartTrack eliminates $8 billion from the City of Toronto budget, which could then be used to create a larger new subway relief line by:

• paying the difference between surface and underground transit between Pape and Don Mills stations; and
• extending it north of Dundas West to Mt Dennis.

Of course, this is all assuming that a) the province doesn't renege on its commitments in The Big Move, and b) the federal govenrment doesn't chip in (which I'm sure it will).

If Tory is going to be dragged off his SmartTrack highhorse, this is how we have to do it: dangle this new subway project in front of council. I'm sure they'd go for it.

 

[Palma]

So, we're facing a repeat of what happened with Gardiner East is what you're saying.



We should take cues from the recent federal election, and put it in a more positive light. This can easily become a campaign for the Relief Line instead. Metrolinx analysis has showed building DRL-LONG (between Osgoode to Don Mills stations via Queen/King, Pape, and Don Mills) would cost about the same money as SmartTrack, be more frequent, be underground (subways subways subways everyone!) and be more effective at relieving the Yonge line.

Furthermore, the province committed to paying 100% for projects under The Big Move. This includes

• Eglinton Crosstown all the way from Mt Dennis to Pearson (eliminating the need for SmartTrack's Eglinton Spur)
• The Relief Line, from Dundas West to Pape stations via Queen (eliminating the need for SmartTrack south of Bloor)
• Don Mills surface rapid transit, from Pape station to Highway 7 (eliminating the need for SmartTrack along the Stouffville line)

So killing SmartTrack eliminates $8 billion from the City of Toronto budget, which could then be used to create a larger new subway relief line by:

• paying the difference between surface and underground transit between Pape and Don Mills stations; and
• extending it north of Dundas West to Mt Dennis.

Of course, this is all assuming that a) the province doesn't renege on its commitments in The Big Move, and b) the federal govenrment doesn't chip in (which I'm sure it will).

If Tory is going to be dragged off his SmartTrack highhorse, this is how we have to do it: dangle this new subway project in front of council. I'm sure they'd go for it.

 

[Palma]

So, we're facing a repeat of what happened with Gardiner East is what you're saying.



We should take cues from the recent federal election, and put it in a more positive light. This can easily become a campaign for the Relief Line instead. Metrolinx analysis has showed building DRL-LONG (between Osgoode to Don Mills stations via Queen/King, Pape, and Don Mills) would cost about the same money as SmartTrack, be more frequent, be underground (subways subways subways everyone!) and be more effective at relieving the Yonge line.

Furthermore, the province committed to paying 100% for projects under The Big Move. This includes

• Eglinton Crosstown all the way from Mt Dennis to Pearson (eliminating the need for SmartTrack's Eglinton Spur)
• The Relief Line, from Dundas West to Pape stations via Queen (eliminating the need for SmartTrack south of Bloor)
• Don Mills surface rapid transit, from Pape station to Highway 7 (eliminating the need for SmartTrack along the Stouffville line)

So killing SmartTrack eliminates $8 billion from the City of Toronto budget, which could then be used to create a larger new subway relief line by:

• paying the difference between surface and underground transit between Pape and Don Mills stations; and
• extending it north of Dundas West to Mt Dennis.

Of course, this is all assuming that a) the province doesn't renege on its commitments in The Big Move, and b) the federal govenrment doesn't chip in (which I'm sure it will).

If Tory is going to be dragged off his SmartTrack highhorse, this is how we have to do it: dangle this new subway project in front of council. I'm sure they'd go for it.

And instead of calling it DRL, call it SmartTrack. A win win for everyone. By the time this DRL actually starts construction, it will be years from now, never mind when completion is, especially as they will most certainly want to open the line at the same time.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So, we're facing a repeat of what happened with Gardiner East is what you're saying.



We should take cues from the recent federal election, and put it in a more positive light. This can easily become a campaign for the Relief Line instead. Metrolinx analysis has showed building DRL-LONG (between Osgoode to Don Mills stations via Queen/King, Pape, and Don Mills) would cost about the same money as SmartTrack, be more frequent, be underground (subways subways subways everyone!) and be more effective at relieving the Yonge line.

Furthermore, the province committed to paying 100% for projects under The Big Move. This includes

• Eglinton Crosstown all the way from Mt Dennis to Pearson (eliminating the need for SmartTrack's Eglinton Spur)
• The Relief Line, from Dundas West to Pape stations via Queen (eliminating the need for SmartTrack south of Bloor)
• Don Mills surface rapid transit, from Pape station to Highway 7 (eliminating the need for SmartTrack along the Stouffville line)

So killing SmartTrack eliminates $8 billion from the City of Toronto budget, which could then be used to create a larger new subway relief line by:

• paying the difference between surface and underground transit between Pape and Don Mills stations; and
• extending it north of Dundas West to Mt Dennis.

Of course, this is all assuming that a) the province doesn't renege on its commitments in The Big Move, and b) the federal govenrment doesn't chip in (which I'm sure it will).

If Tory is going to be dragged off his SmartTrack highhorse, this is how we have to do it: dangle this new subway project in front of council. I'm sure they'd go for it.

The entire reason we have SmartTrack is because of private business interests along the proposed rail corridor. So for this to work, you'd need connections to organizations with business interests in the DRL LONG to be involved.

I'd be elated to see an advocacy group for the DRL LONG formed. So if anyone here has connections.... you know what to do.

 

[44 North]

We should take cues from the recent federal election, and put it in a more positive light. This can easily become a campaign for the Relief Line instead. Metrolinx analysis has showed building DRL-LONG (between Osgoode to Don Mills stations via Queen/King, Pape, and Don Mills) would cost about the same money as SmartTrack, be more frequent, be underground (subways subways subways everyone!) and be more effective at relieving the Yonge line.

Just a heads up in case you weren't aware, but the YRNS technical report included one more option and was a bit more in depth in its numbers:

And instead of calling it DRL, call it SmartTrack. A win win for everyone. By the time this DRL actually starts construction, it will be years from now, never mind when completion is, especially as they will most certainly want to open the line at the same time.

I may've had it written on one of my fantasy maps, but I'd like to forward my idea for a new name for the relief line. That being: Don River Line. I think it works well since the line roughly follows the Don River and East Don, and it keeps the same DRL acronym while removing "downtown" (which is important IMO from a socio-political and psychological perspective).

 

[Rainforest]

I may've had it written on one of my fantasy maps, but I'd like to forward my idea for a new name for the relief line. That being: Don River Line. I think it works well since the line roughly follows the Don River and East Don, and it keeps the same DRL acronym while removing "downtown" (which is important IMO from a socio-political and psychological perspective).

I like that name.

 

[Rainforest]

We should take cues from the recent federal election, and put it in a more positive light. This can easily become a campaign for the Relief Line instead. Metrolinx analysis has showed building DRL-LONG (between Osgoode to Don Mills stations via Queen/King, Pape, and Don Mills) would cost about the same money as SmartTrack, be more frequent, be underground (subways subways subways everyone!) and be more effective at relieving the Yonge line.

Furthermore, the province committed to paying 100% for projects under The Big Move. This includes

• Eglinton Crosstown all the way from Mt Dennis to Pearson (eliminating the need for SmartTrack's Eglinton Spur)
• The Relief Line, from Dundas West to Pape stations via Queen (eliminating the need for SmartTrack south of Bloor)
• Don Mills surface rapid transit, from Pape station to Highway 7 (eliminating the need for SmartTrack along the Stouffville line)

So killing SmartTrack eliminates $8 billion from the City of Toronto budget, which could then be used to create a larger new subway relief line by:

• paying the difference between surface and underground transit between Pape and Don Mills stations; and
• extending it north of Dundas West to Mt Dennis.

Of course, this is all assuming that a) the province doesn't renege on its commitments in The Big Move, and b) the federal govenrment doesn't chip in (which I'm sure it will).

If Tory is going to be dragged off his SmartTrack highhorse, this is how we have to do it: dangle this new subway project in front of council. I'm sure they'd go for it.

Strategically, DRL is more useful than SmartTrack. If I was in a position to fund DRL (either Long or Short) at the expense of totally abandoning SmartTrack, I would go for that.

However, such a trade will be very hard to do, and the main problem is not John Tory's stubbornness or anyone's business interest as some suggested here.

The main issue is that the provincial commitment to SmartTrack is, in reality, their commitment to GO RER. The province is not giving any extra money fo SmartTrack.

In any event, the province will not cancel GO RER in favor of DRL; both because GO RER makes a lot of sence, and because cancelling it would affect several swing ridings in the 905 area.

For GO RER and DRL to be funded in parallel, either of the two has to happen:

1) The province has to commit another substantial chunk of funding for DRL. They may not be prepared to do so in the near term.

2) Or, the DRL funding has to come from the City and the federal government, with no provincial contribution. A federal transit contribution without the matching provincial would be highly unusual and isn't likely; and the city alone is unlikely to be able to afford DRL.

Because of that, I'd rather see SmartTrack go ahead, but its ridership expectations should be scaled back to such level that can be achieved without exorbitant investments in the existing rail corridors. Of course, the Eglinton West section should be replaced with LRT. The rest of SmartTrack should be just a variation of RER service that does more for 416 (more stations, more frequent trains if possible, and a favorable fare policy).

Once SmartTrack is under construction, the push for DRL can resume.

 

[gweed123]

SmartTrack can largely be rolled into GO RER with only minimal additional capital cost (assuming the Eglinton West section is dropped). If you do a bare bones upgrade compared to what was going to be done for RER, and poured the rest of that money into a Central Tunnel, an East York Tunnel, and electrification of the Richmond Hill line north of Lawrence, you'd basically be getting the benefits of both. You'd be following a very similar alignment to the DRL Long, and you'd be able to run SmartTrack branches from every GO RER line through the Central Tunnel, further maximizing relief.

This whole debate shouldn't be able DRL vs SmartTrack, it should be about "how do we morph SmartTrack so that it includes a DRL?".

 

[WislaHD]

SmartTrack can largely be rolled into GO RER with only minimal additional capital cost (assuming the Eglinton West section is dropped). If you do a bare bones upgrade compared to what was going to be done for RER, and poured the rest of that money into a Central Tunnel, an East York Tunnel, and electrification of the Richmond Hill line north of Lawrence, you'd basically be getting the benefits of both. You'd be following a very similar alignment to the DRL Long, and you'd be able to run SmartTrack branches from every GO RER line through the Central Tunnel, further maximizing relief.

This whole debate shouldn't be able DRL vs SmartTrack, it should be about "how do we morph SmartTrack so that it includes a DRL?".

My favorite solution.

I don't understand why we are so stiff in Toronto when it comes to transit. We must have it done with this specific technology and this specific train-set and this specific level of grade separation and this must work the same everywhere this line goes. Where is the creativity in that?

Morph the DRL with the Richmond Hill line and call it SmartTrack. The line can be both multi-purpose and all-purpose. While we are at it, find a LRT vehicle that can fit the Sheppard tunnel and be used at-grade on Sheppard East. If Bombardier doesn't want to build a vehicle to our specifications than that's their loss, we can take our business elsewhere to a company who gladly will.

 

[crs1026]

Morph the DRL with the Richmond Hill line and call it SmartTrack. The line can be both multi-purpose and all-purpose.

This is a really intriguing idea.... I'm hung up on how you merge a many-stops service with a 'express' service. If the RH line grew enough stops south of Steeles to be a relief/city transit line, would the ridership from Langstaff and beyond accept the added travel time? If you have two types of runs, how do you keep the faster ones from overtaking the slower?

A different alignment might allow stops yet match the current slow trip down the Don, but only to a degree. Spacing the trains only works if your headways are longer... a tradeoff with total capacity. Is there a solution ?

While we are at it, find a LRT vehicle that can fit the Sheppard tunnel and be used at-grade on Sheppard East. If Bombardier doesn't want to build a vehicle to our specifications than that's their loss, we can take our business elsewhere to a company who gladly will.

Absolutely agree. Something will fit in that tunnel yet run on the surface also, we just need to find it.

- Paul

 

[WislaHD]

This is a really intriguing idea.... I'm hung up on how you merge a many-stops service with a 'express' service. If the RH line grew enough stops south of Steeles to be a relief/city transit line, would the ridership from Langstaff and beyond accept the added travel time? If you have two types of runs, how do you keep the faster ones from overtaking the slower?

A different alignment might allow stops yet match the current slow trip down the Don, but only to a degree. Spacing the trains only works if your headways are longer... a tradeoff with total capacity. Is there a solution ?

I've made a post a while ago better explaining how this would work in the Transit Fantasy Maps thread:

How will the Provincial Liberals and John Tory win their respective elections in 2018? By promising the Downtown Relief Line through SmartTrack. And here's how:

The Richmond Hill GO line was one of the few GO lines that has not received funding for corridor electrification and GO-RER. I believe this is because Metrolinx are looking to create a new alignment (Don Branch Alignment pg-9) for the Richmond Hill GO line south of Eglinton as the present alignment is impractical, prone to flooding and not worth maintaining. However, being one of the main GO routes, an upgrade is inevitable and the 2018 election cycle is as good of a time to promise it as any.

Toronto has needed a Downtown Relief Line for ages, a downtown subway has literally been talked about for a century now. York Region needs the DRL to be built so construction can commence on the Yonge North line and intensification of their city centres can continue.

By 2018, John Tory will want to have his SmartTrack along the Stouffville corridor already underway. Using funds freed up from the conversion of the Scarborough Subway Extension (over $4 Billion projected with non-McCowen alignment) to an above-ground spur of SmartTrack (and hopefully from dropping the Eglinton West spur), he will be looking for a new project to champion in the 2018 election cycle. A Downtown Relief Line seems important but John Tory is already the champion of SmartTrack. So how about a second SmartTrack line?

Here is how it would work:

• The Richmond Hill corridor would be converted to a shared GO-RER and SmartTrack corridor just like the Stouffville corridor in Scarborough. Except rather than using the long, elongated route along the Don River, it will enter a Don Mills tunnel just north of Lawrence. To save costs I think Don Mills is wide enough for cut+cover.
• From there, the line takes the traditional DRL alignment through Thorncliffe Park and down Pape to Pape Station on Line 2. This gives us interchanges with the Eglinton Crosstown and the Danforth Subway that were not previously present.
• At Gerrard Square in East York, the Richmond Hill line meets with Scarborough SmartTrack. The two lines merge and head west towards a downtown tunnel along Queen street. While the Richmond Hill, Stouffville, Seaton and Lakeshore East GO-RER trains head south to Union Station.

Inside the Downtown Tunnel, the two SmartTrack lines together will provide subway-like frequencies of less than 2.5 minutes. Here is the rough breakdown:

Downtown Tunnel
10 Trains per Hour from Langstaff
10 Trains per Hour from Markham
5 Trains per Hour from Malvern
total = 25 Trains per Hour or 2.4 minute frequency

If we have 10 trains coming from Malvern, we achieve a flat 2 minute frequency.

From there, they emerge out of the downtown tunnel at Queen West and continue along the corridor to Mount Dennis on the Eglinton Crosstown, interchanging with Line 2 again at Dundas West on the way. At Mount Dennis, it may either continue along Eglinton to Airport Corporate Centre (and Mississauga?) or along the Kitchener Corridor to Woodbine (detour to Pearson along UPX corridor?). My personal preference is that the Eglinton West spur gets cut from the SmartTrack plan and the Kitchener Corridor is used.

There you have it, the solution to Toronto's transit problems by 2030. GO-RER on all corridors minus Barrie and Milton, a SmartTrack that acts as both a Downtown Subway and as a Relief Line, and it is possible to build as for the first time Toronto's history, various interests can align in the 2018 Election cycle to build this downtown line.

Critique away.

In essence, SmartTrack trains go to the downtown tunnel, GO-RER trains go to Union Station. You get high frequency where you need it, and GO-RER level frequency once you leave the 416 (/Langstaff).

Just cut off the Eglinton West spur of the plan now that Metrolinx has come out as practically against it.

 

[crs1026]

I've made a post a while ago better explaining how this would work in the Transit Fantasy Maps thread:

Thanks for the link. Now that I've read it, I like it even better.

My question is still - you've suggested 10 trains per hour. That's one every 6 minutes on the Langstaff spur. And you've drawn RER extending northwards to Richmond Hill proper. Are you suggesting that some of those 10 trains just carry on northwards (ie RER and ST are fundamentally the same thing, with ST just being a turnback and a different end point downtown), or are you suggesting RER trains interleave between ST trains?

I'm still dubious that an RER train could interleave on a 6-minute headway without catching up with the preceding ST train.....even assuming the RER stops at a certain number of those stops. (RER should connect to the Sheppard line (the old Oriole stop moved northwards), the Eglinton LRT, and to the Bloor line, and Gerrard Square becomes the Jamaica-like transfer point if RER passengers want to transfer to ST...so it's not really an "express" train anyways).

I like that the ST as you've drawn it has a modest number of stops. That, and the more direct route, might mean no increased travel time for RER versus the current GO. Once you get to Gerrard Square, there would have to be a major junction (and more tracks) so overtaking trains aren't an issue beyond that point.

One new issue to consider: If RER and ST are to share the same tracks, they may have different trains but still will have to share the same control system. One of the first lines for both ST and RER is the Weston Sub, which just had a new control system installed for UPX. Smallspy reports that this system has a PTC module already installed (but not turned on).....so the question becomes, does the UPX control system meet RER/ST's needs? If so, can it be the standard for all of ST/RER? If it can't, and it has to be torn out and replaced with something else.....what a colossal waste of money that was!

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

Tory says that Crossrail is the inspiration for SmartTrack. Uh-huh. A project which, before the "Google Maps Plan" was exposed, was supposed to have *no tunnels*. Those with a longer memory than the Mayor remember London Overground being tagged with the honour of inspiration, in any event.

Crossrail is a co-operation between National Rail and Transport for London. SmartTrack is Metrolinx built and operated RER with different livery and maybe different fare structure.

Crossrail joins two east west heavy rail corridors with a new east west connecting tunnel to bring both sets of passengers through London or at least its far side from their perspective, relieving London Underground of those transfers. SmartTrack is a TTC project to promote transit in Toronto whose biggest effects will be in Mississauga (if Eglinton West alignment built) and Markham, and which pushes more passengers into the centre using existing tracks with a terminal capacity already set to be tested by RER.