Sheppard Subway to be Mothballed?

[Pep'rJack]

Unions are useless.

lordmandeep rocks - I want more lordmandeep!

Pep'rJack is having one of those moments when the entire globe seems even more uproariously mad than what is now casually accepted as 'the usual'. He is drunk and getting drunker, 'cause he no longer knows what else to do.

Absurdities upon absurdities. The city's financial situation is beyond farce now - I don't even know what to call this circus anymore. Everything is funny today.

The cycle goes on. We know we have an unfair fiscal relationship with the province. We know we should not be the sole funders of social services in the city. The province, the federal government know this. And while things have improved under McGuinty's reign as premier, not enough has been done to alleviate the stress placed on Toronto's finances.

And so it goes. 'Round & 'round & 'round... Let me off this fucking thing!

Completely crazy. A joke.

Save us, Jebus!

"Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?" (Obi-Wan Kenobi)

 

[lordmandeep]

the problem is more then the province not funding the city properly.

It also has to do with the city not spending wisely. I am not saying the city stop all funding to arts and culture and the homeless. They could however start at freezing pay increases for its employees. Getting rid of people they don't need and maybe have work done by someone else for a lower price. Who cares if it hurts the unions. The city does not serve this small group but the entire 2.5 million in the city.

I was very sympathetic to Miller and the city over it financial problems but the last week has really made me open my eyes.

 

[unimaginative2]

To an extent, I agree with this. Witness Ottawa, where they derailed a flawed, but still serviceable LRT plan that would have been a great start to a bigger system. I think Blue 22 is a different story all together though (one project that Unimaginative uses to blast transit advocates opposing transit).

But couldn't you say this about environmentalists - they are notorious for fighting amongst themselves too. Anti-poverty and social activists too.

Some transit proposals are so bad, they deserve criticism though. Just because it's a transit plan doesn't mean it's good.

For some reason, the word blast really made me chuckle. Maybe I was being a little harsh, but I still think it's very true, and your Ottawa LRT example is a perfect demonstration. Unfortunately, those transit activists were listened to and it totally derailed major transit improvements for years because it wasn't somebody's pet project.

I certainly have reservations about the York U subway north of Steeles, though all the new MoveOntario investments in the Highway 7 transitway and Viva should make it more than worthwhile. I still find it absurd that they're tunnelling through government-owned grassland.

It's so true about "progressives" fighting amongst themselves ultimately defeating their own interests. It's something of a relic of socialist-communist fights and even Trotskyite-Stalinist. Of course, I'd consider NDP-Liberal to be a case of self-defeating progressive infighting too...

I think that the biggest problem with transit "advocacy" in Ontario is that it's too tied up in transit "geekery." In most world cities, the transit advocates are riders who couldn't tell you a thing about the differences between a New Look and a Nova LFS other than which provides a better ride. Transit geeks, while dedicated (and it's a group that I would include myself in), tend to cheerlead the transit authority far too much, and base their decisions on personal fan favourites when it comes to vehicles or services. They also tend to be fiercely aggressive in defending the status quo. The Straphangers berate the MTA brass and vigorously point out underperforming routes. The Rocket Riders seem tickled pink every time a TTC employee comes to speak to them, and they've said absolutely nothing about the very poor service on downtown streetcar or some suburban bus routes, for example.

 

[unimaginative2]

this has to be a scare tactic. they can't possibly be serious.

regardless, transit in this city is in serious financial trouble. when i heard fare hike & subway closure, i can also imagine that the accessibility plan will be delayed. 2035 anyone? wheeltrans will probably see cuts or no improvements.

it's kinda sad that the sheppard line, the only fully accessible subway line would have to be shut down.

does anyone have a full list of the bus routes that they are "proposing" to shut down?

Don't worry, Prometheus. Nothing is going to be shut down, cancelled, or even postponed.

 

[lordmandeep]

two things will happen.

Nothing till October

Or they actually begin to solve thier problems

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

I think that the biggest problem with transit "advocacy" in Ontario is that it's too tied up in transit "geekery." In most world cities, the transit advocates are riders who couldn't tell you a thingabout the differences between a New Look and a Nova LFS other than which provides a better ride. Transit geeks, while dedicated (and it's a group that I would include myself in), tend to cheerlead the transit authority far too much, and base their decisions on personal fan favourites when it comes to vehicles or services. They also tend to be fiercely agressive in defending the status quo. The Straphangers berate the MTA brass and vigorously point out underperforming routes. The Rocket Riders seem tickled pink every time a TTC employee comes to speak to them, and they've said absolutely nothing about the very poor service on downtown streetcar or some suburban bus routes, for example.

I couldn't agree more. Not only do the various advocacy groups just fight and make petty remarks about each other but outside of the roomfull of people in each group no body really cares what they are talking about. Most people not only don't care what kind of vehicles are going to be used, they aren't likely to care whether it is a bus or streetcar or subway, so long as it is convenient and fast (an attitude best expressed on this forum by Scarberian). But since most groups don't talk about those issues often, if at all, they are of no use to the majority of transit users.

The only good side to it all is that they are irrelevant and have no impact on transit, good or bad, so no harm done I suppose.

 

[Towered]

I remember that a few years ago in a similar situation Howard Moscoe made an equally ridiculous threat to shut down the entire Spadina subway line. Nobody took that seriously, and I don't think they should this time either.

However, in the extremely unlikely event that Sheppard does get shut down for an indefinite period, that would be the golden opportunity to retrofit it into an LRT line without having to worry about inconveniencing anyone!

 

[unimaginative2]

But that's just it. They do have an impact. They played an extremely important role in the defeat of the O-Train in Ottawa.

Seriously, check out the Straphangers website. I love The Pokeys and The Unreliables awards.

And then there's Steve Munro. I respect his analyis of route operations very much, and he does more for promoting more reliable service than any other group, though I take issue with his lack of concern for speed of service. I also respect his fight to retain streetcars back in the 70s. But in his latest blog post, where he calls the mothballing of the Sheppard Subway the "Silver lining" in all this, he really dives off the subway-bashing ideological deep end.

 

[Pep'rJack]

I think that the biggest problem with transit "advocacy" in Ontario is that it's too tied up in transit "geekery." In most world cities, the transit advocates are riders who couldn't tell you a thingabout the differences between a New Look and a Nova LFS other than which provides a better ride. Transit geeks, while dedicated (and it's a group that I would include myself in), tend to cheerlead the transit authority far too much, and base their decisions on personal fan favourites when it comes to vehicles or services. They also tend to be fiercely agressive in defending the status quo. The Straphangers berate the MTA brass and vigorously point out underperforming routes.

unimaginative2 speaks The Truth, penetratingly and concisely.

transit 'geeks': Read this post again.

Now... read it AGAIN.

Know this to be true, and unite with us 'Straphangers' in demanding basic and ludicrously overdue 'world city' transit for this town.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

But that's just it. They do have an impact. They played an extremely important role in the defeat of the O-Train in Ottawa.

That is what I thought too at first but I think if you go back and look at what was said in the public (in newspapers, meetings, etc) you see that they really didn't play much of a part at all. Yes they got some coverage, but, the main reason the project was defeated was because most of the public questioned the downtown portion and didn't see the point in investing $800 million on a line that would face the exact same problems that buses do now on Albert and Slater. It was always an issue from the beginning and that combined with the nonesense of government funding being withdrawn and then resubmitted, but then not if they only proceeded with one part, was the death blow. Not only that but the whole debate was confused by the fact that almost no one knew what they were talking about.

I don't think you can really prove either view one way. I thought, and still do, think their ideas where idiotic, but I think their influence was rather minimal.

Edit: I think the reason it seems like they had an influence is because their ideas where no different then that of what you see people submitting to the Citizen editorial page. Ever since the stumpy line opened, and even before that, and still too this day, there are people writing in about using existing tracks, and doing it cheaply, and using the Gatineau rail bridge, and all the same things that Friends of the O-Train basically talked about.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

However, in the extremely unlikely event that Sheppard does get shut down for an indefinite period, that would be the golden opportunity to retrofit it into an LRT line without having to worry about inconveniencing anyone!

Get that emoticon out of here! Your plan would inconvenience all of the riders. How can there be billions lying around to build that when there isn't millions lying around to run what we already have?

 

[GovernorARNOLD]

what will happen to City Park Place?

major blow to that project...

 

[adma]

Somehow, the potential loss of the Dupont bus rings more ominously than the loss of the Sheppard line (which'd be duplicated by surface routes, anyway).

All the more so since Dupont runs through Giambrone's ward...

 

[Hydrogen]

Pep'rJack is having one of those moments when the entire globe seems even more uproariously mad than what is now casually accepted as 'the usual'. He is drunk and getting drunker, 'cause he no longer knows what else to do.

You type awfully well for being drunk. My hat's off to you.

Don't worry, Prometheus. Nothing is going to be shut down, cancelled, or even postponed.

This issue is on the radar with all provincial parties and leaders; they are all mumbling about it in a confused manner. It is time to make them feel the heat. What Miller should do now is to publicise these cuts, focus on the responsibility of the provincial government in having to make those cuts, zero in on the inactivity of the provincial government to do what is necessary to mitigate the need for such cuts, and then the city should actually start to shut things down - right as the election begins! Just heap blame on the province and turn it into the election issue.

Extreme? Yes. But extreme times may call for extreme actions.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Somehow, the potential loss of the Dupont bus rings more ominously than the loss of the Sheppard line (which'd be duplicated by surface routes, anyway).

All the more so since Dupont runs through Giambrone's ward...

They seem to be equal as far as he's concerned. "You're losing a subway? So what? I'm losing a bus route!"