Sheppard Subway to be Mothballed?

[AnarchoSocialist]

What an absurd idea. Wasn't this idea suggested before? It seems familiar.

Not too take this too far off topic, though in a thread dealing with something so ridicuous that is hard not too do, I agree with Unimaginative that transit advocates are often counterproductive in their desire to promote transit. It is sometimes suprising how much time transit advocates argue among themselves. They probably don't really do much too hurt the cause because nobody outside of the little circles really pays attention to them anyways but it is too bad because it is a lot of wasted energy.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

A little harsh, Unimaginative.

You must admit that there are very valid criticisms of the Sorbara extension to Vaughan - I think most people that support transit yet do not support certain subway lines believe that there are more worthy projects.

I support the York U extension, with only a few caveats. I have become resigned to the Sorbara Line being built, but I am not happy about how that superceded more worthy projects - it was a very political decision.

There's valid criticisms of every transit project. There may be nothing wrong with an extension serving 100,000 people per day that the city will basically get for free other than it wasn't at the top of the wish list.

 

[ShonTron]

I agree with Unimaginative that transit advocates are often counterproductive in their desire to promote transit.

To an extent, I agree with this. Witness Ottawa, where they derailed a flawed, but still serviceable LRT plan that would have been a great start to a bigger system. I think Blue 22 is a different story all together though (one project that Unimaginative uses to blast transit advocates opposing transit).

But couldn't you say this about environmentalists - they are notorious for fighting amongst themselves too. Anti-poverty and social activists too.

Some transit proposals are so bad, they deserve criticism though. Just because it's a transit plan doesn't mean it's good.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

To an extent, I agree with this. Witness Ottawa, where they derailed a flawed, but still serviceable LRT plan that would have been a great start to a bigger system. I think Blue 22 is a different story all together though (one project that Unimaginative uses to blast transit advocates opposing transit).

But couldn't you say this about environmentalists - they are notorious for fighting amongst themselves too. Anti-poverty and social activists too.

Some transit proposals are so bad, they deserve criticism though. Just because it's a transit plan doesn't mean it's good.

I think the reference to other social activists is a good illustration of one of the problems with transit advocate groups. Yes, you do get silly infighting among social groups sometimes but a lot of social groups such as gay rights, environmentalists, human rights, etc, have also done a good job (somewhat stunted in recent years but growing again) at developing solidarity and building off each others strengths and helping each other out. Transit advocates are by and large an isolated group that really don't seem to be interested in forming links with rather obvious groups such as envirnomentalists or anti-poverty or seniors rights groups. They stay isolated and therefore stay irrelevant. And that is really too bad.

I agree Blue 22 was totally different. It was about a community group demanding that their needs and concerns, legitimately, be dealt with, and citizens at large who opposed the public money for private profit scam that is Blue 22. Very few complaints were/are against transit itself but rather the project itself.

Criticism and public inquiry is fine and desireable. But transit advocates really seem to keep repeating a pattern of self defeating behaviour. Ottawa is another case unto itself, but illustrative of what happens when competing groups who by and large have the same interests and desires in mind let self interest consume them all.

 

[ITcomputer]

The Sheppard line was a good investment...it has generated thousands of new residential units, generating enough taxes to - should they be funneled to transit instead of being raked in by other levels of government - pay for finishing the line as intended.

Sarcasm does not work well on MB's I see.

When I said the Shp line was a good investment I was referring to the fact that after building it and then the massive development that has occurred, the idea of closing it down is actually being floated..

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Sarcasm can work on the internet, but not when you couple it with a suggestion to cancel the Sorbara extension.

edit - In a way, part of Sheppard was mothballed before it opened...1/3 of each station is packed away behind walls for now.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

this has to be a scare tactic. they can't possibly be serious.

regardless, transit in this city is in serious financial trouble. when i heard fare hike & subway closure, i can also imagine that the accessibility plan will be delayed. 2035 anyone? wheeltrans will probably see cuts or no improvements.

it's kinda sad that the sheppard line, the only fully accessible subway line would have to be shut down.

does anyone have a full list of the bus routes that they are "proposing" to shut down?

 

[GregWTravels]

This whole crisis seems so manufactured. Unless I am unaware of some magic tax collection fairy at the city of Toronto's disposal, if the taxes had passed city council on Monday they wouldn't have had money in their hands right away. This is when I really hate politicians - when they start to play politics.

 

[Chuck]

Toronto is run by a bunch of fools. Privatize, de-unionize, contract out, and reduce the number of office jobs.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^ Just come back from a vacation in Sandy Springs, GA?

 

[lordmandeep]

however the TTC is run by a crazy union who will by themselves steal any new money the TTC ever gets by demanding higher pay and going on strike.


Someone needs to go after the unions in the city as they really are the ones that have caused this mess. The truth is the real cash crunch is not from service improvements but from raising wages. The city wanted to avoid strikes so they just agree to the unions and now are feeling the effects.

Unions are useless. Work was good at my Mom's work and Then they started a union and got maybe 2 dollars more an hour but 65% lost thier jobs in a year.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

I think privatizing public transit would work fine, but, all freeways and highways should be privatized as well. Put everything into the market place and watch the magic unfold. I am sure everything would come out just super.

And while they are at they can cut government subsidies to the auto industry and oil companies as well. If TTC employees can be without social protection then I think companies can do the same.

 

[lordmandeep]

don't lecture me on the downfalls of the free market and privatization because i know them well. Don't assume i am some capitalist who thinks capitalism fixes everything.


Transit should not be privatized because really really they would cut most of the services and bus routes. That would lead to maybe better service but really it would be in certain areas.

I think they should stop giving pay increases when they have trouble meeting increasing service requirements. If i were the provincial govt, i wouldn't want to give money away to pay for the wages of city employees.

 

[AnarchoSocialist]

If your allowed to make sweeping, generalization of unions then surely I can make broad based statements on the pitfalls of capitalism.

Nor am I defending the TTC necessarily. But, bashing the unions and blaming them for all the TTC's faults is nonesense when the TTC is lead and managed by people who continue to say and do stupid things on a constant basis and demonstrate a complete lack of understanding about even the basics of running public transit services.

 

[lordmandeep]

and one of the very stupid things they did was to give pay increases when they had no extra money to give.