Sheppard Subway Extension West?

[lead82]

How do you figure a bridge would be less expensive? A tunnel machine can just bore down without disturbing the environment above. It can be launched near Downsview and tunnel all the way east until it meets up with the tail tracks by Senlac. The only cut & cover I see would be for the station at Bathurst.

I'm not sure if this bridge can be retrofitted a la Bloor Viaduct to have the subway go underneath the roadbed. If it can, then it may be cheaper, if not, a new bridge would be expensive and disruptive to the environment, since the valley would need to be further destroyed to create this new structure. Also it would be traffic chaos if the existing bridge needs to be closed as it was after the 2005 rain storm.

Tunnelling is cheaper if you consider all the costs, and not just the cost to tunnel.

 

[unimaginative2]

Look at the Yonge North study and the Sheppard subway. In both cases, bridges were recommended for crossing river valleys. You need an incredibly deep tunnel to go under a valley like that. A bridge is a very simple thing to build. Moreover, you'd need a super-deep station at Bathurst, which would add additional millions.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I wonder if it's even possible for subway trains to handle such an elevation change in such a short distance as would be required to get from the Welbeck tail tracks to underneath the Don. There's nothing remotely 'natural' about the parkland under the Sheppard bridge over the Don...even the river is in a concrete gulley at this point, so there's nothing to destroy by altering the bridge.

As for Faywood, it doesn't have intensification potential, it *is* seeing intensification. Once again, I implore everyone to take a stroll along Sheppard West and you'll see the city's first post-suburb Avenue. Faywood station isn't absolutely necessary, but it'll be decently well-used if built. Senlac, on the other hand, would need to see substantial redevelopment to ever see ridership above 2-3K per day, and that includes a thousand or so arriving via the Senlac bus. Adding both Faywood and Senlac, though, would mean no need to run buses on Sheppard.

 

[BMO]

wouldn't the west extension to keele/sheppard, and jane n finch create some good ridership accross the line? everytime i pass by those intersections the busses are allways full and the shelters are allways packed. plus there's quite a bit of high rises in that area, of whom the inhabitants are more likely to use transit, due to low income

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Going to Jane & Finch would boost ridership, yes, and in the long-term running Sheppard from Downsview to Jane & Finch and over to Humber[/Woodbine/airport] is the way to go, although the Spadina extension would compete for many of the same riders.

 

[BMO]

that's true it would be competing against the spadina extension, but the two finch stops would be a considerable distance apart as well, i think it would appeal more to the jane/finch surrounding areas since its obviously closer and they would not need a bus ride to get to the spadina finch station, because at the end of the day, the spadina finch stop won't decrease the need for busses on finch, it would increase the demand for buses on finch because people would be wanting to go to the subway, i know the lrt is proposed for finch, but i believe lrt's are just fancy streetcars, whenever i go to barcelona to see my family i take their lrt, and it's honestly not very fast.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

A subway station at Keele & Finch might actually decrease demand for buses on Finch since it would split the route in two...overall Finch ridership could go up 90% but if it's split in two you could serve that huge increase with fewer vehicles. An extension of Sheppard along Finch would also steal some riders from Spadina's Steeles station, as well as some park/kiss'n'riders. Still, the NW probably has the city's worst traffic and is clearly underserved by good transit...almost any transit investment in the NW is good for the city's future.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Yes, if both Spadina and Yonge line get extended north, it strengthens the case for extending Sheppard subway to Downsview and forming a link between the two N-S lines.

I wouldn't rule out a station at Faywood though, as intensification potential seems to be there.

There's no real "if" to the two north extensions at this point. They're both happening. One has started prelim construction and the other is already in the 6-month EA.

Everyone here seems pretty much on the same page about how much sense it makes to do this now.

Faywood is a tough call but my basic take is that I'd skip it (maybe rough it in) for now if it means building the Shep line west. You create a real network by connecting Downsview to Sheppard and you really have to do a Bathurst stop at that point. If it's a dealbreaker, Faywood could be postponed though it should be there in an ideal scenario.

 

[BobBob]

Faywood would be less than 1km from Downsview Station. Out here, that's the appropriate distance between bus stops, not subway stations.

Anyhow, I agree that Sheppard would be a lot more useful if it connected the two YUS branches.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

How is 1km inappropriate for subway stations?

Roughing in Faywood makes no sense...if the redevelopment of Sheppard into an Avenue with retail and thousands of new residential units isn't a reason to build the station, why would we possibly need to rough it in? The only way the city might conceivably go beyond the Avenues plan and permit the kind of 30+ storey towers that might noticeably increase ridership on top of what is or will be around Faywood is if the station is built. Might as well build it now or forget about it entirely, because it won't get built later.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

How is 1km inappropriate for subway stations?
The only way the city might conceivably go beyond the Avenues plan and permit the kind of 30+ storey towers that might noticeably increase ridership on top of what is or will be around Faywood is if the station is built. Might as well build it now or forget about it entirely, because it won't get built later.

Fair enough. My point was just that it makes sense to extend out to Downsview and if Faywood is considered too much of an expense, I'd postpone that to get the extension sooner rather than later. All things being equal, I see the point to adding it.

So, we're talking two stops, a bridge/and or tunnel and...I would presume Downsview Station was designed with the idea it would one day hook up with Shepard. Was any of the necessary infrastructure built in?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Nothing will be postponed...it'll either be built now or never. Unlike North York Centre, the only station ever built later, Sheppard's redevelopment around Faywood will be complete (or, at least, set in stone) by the time the extension is built, so that there won't be any reason to build it later other than to serve existing riders. The cost of adding one station won't make or break the extension, although the city will probably insist on adding both Faywood and Senlac to make the extension's cost as high as possible, "too expensive," even.

 

[BMO]

So, we're talking two stops, a bridge/and or tunnel and...I would presume Downsview Station was designed with the idea it would one day hook up with Shepard. Was any of the necessary infrastructure built in?

yea was downsview built to be prepared for a link to the sheppard line in mind?

 

[unimaginative2]

Yes. The extension to Downsview from Wilson was specifically built to connect with the Sheppard line.

 

[Voltz]

Yes. The extension to Downsview from Wilson was specifically built to connect with the Sheppard line.

Do have a source for that information?
I know it looks like on a map that the Downsview extension was built to connect with sheppard

The Downsview extension was just a subway bone thrown to the Metro government by the province, so they could buy time before committing to a real plan. It was not specifically built to connect with sheppard, and their was never anything mentioned about Downsview station being designed for a future station on the sheppard line,

Read this article http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5109.shtml