crs1026
Superstar
It means people won't go from Etobicoke to Brampton just to avoid the sales tax - so retailers won't scream disadvantage. Less likely that many would drive to Cobourg or Barrie to save 2%.
- Paul
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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
It means people won't go from Etobicoke to Brampton just to avoid the sales tax - so retailers won't scream disadvantage. Less likely that many would drive to Cobourg or Barrie to save 2%.
- Paul
TransitBart
Senior Member
1. The province needs infrastructure. Period. Be it hospitals which remain unfunded, or northern infrastructure - look at that new bridge on Hwy 17 on the way to Thunder Bay, or infrastructure generally - be it mass transit or Hwy 407 East.
Province wide is justified. It hits all. Tiger: this is what levelling the playing field is all about. Above all it removes the potentially weird phenomenon (and market distorting) of something costing less at Square One in Mississauga than it costs in Etobicoke (Totonto) at Cloverdale.
The transportation problems that Toronto has are not unique to it and extend to Ottawa and London and Kitchener-Waterloo - in other words - province wide.
Direct the revenue to Infrastructure Ontario if you will. As long as it stays out of general revenue.
2. Shitstorms. That goes with the territory in politics. I looked at Ontario's debt clock last evening. We are about to roll through $300 billion CAD. Some of this has to be paid for along the way. Value added taxes are an excellent way to raise the money. They do not affect corporate competitiveness which does count. They don't affect personal saving. That counts too. At the bottom end of the income spectrum, the province is best positioned to assist lower-income residents rather than making this another situation where different municipalities come up with different solutions.
Remember, this would be restoring the value-added tax rate to where it was from its inception to the cuts of the previous federal government. It's not like it's unexplored territory.
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BurlOak
Senior Member
That is not a great example. A bridge that should have been about $25M, but since the Ministry wanted a landmark bridge they built one for four times as much ($106M award) and probably 6x when all is said and done. This example just shows what happens when a government has too much money to spend with no regard for spending efficiently.
TransitBart
Senior Member
That is why I cited it. The cost was outrageous for something in the middle of nowhere. And then it buckled in the cold. Bad engineering to boot.
Markster
Senior Member
The cost was definitely higher than it should have been (they probably should have built a simpler bridge, and adorned it with a few million dollars worth of non-structural art/flourish instead) but it's not "in the middle of nowhere". It is an important highway link that sees a lot of traffic every day. Not many people live there, but a lot of people travel through. It's important to avoid casual dismissals of Northern Ontario as unimportant/unpopulated/etc, as that adds to the general resentment that sometimes creeps up.
ShonTron
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It's actually two bridges. The Ontario government is twinning Highways 11/17 between Thunder Bay and Nipigon, which, IMO, is completely worth it, given it's the only highway connecting Eastern and Western Canada at this point.
BurlOak
Senior Member
It's 1 bridge, being built in 2 stages - possibly the first in the world. There is a single tower with 3 lines of cables. The centre cable line carries load from both halves of the bridge, and is thus heavier. The north and centre cables are installed to carry the (ultimate) westbound lanes. They are currently working on the south halves of the tower and abutments.
44 North
Senior Member
Not sure if it's been discussed before, probably has. But I was thinking about "interlining" of subway lines (similar to the short-lived Yonge-Bloor-Danforth in the 60s), and thought how costly/complex it would be to interline Sheppard/Line 4 with Yonge. So basically the Sheppard stub would become two lines: Line 1 and Line 4. The majority of Sheppard's service would be 6-car Line 1 trains (that bypass Sheppard-Yonge station), while the current 4-car Yonge-Don Mills shuttle would run similar to how it does today - albeit less frequently (e.g 15mins).
AFAIK the N/B Yonge track leads to Sheppard E/B. With ATC in a place and one or two new crossovers, I can't really see why this would be an extreme challenge or costly endeavour. As for wayfinding, the second interline on Sheppard could be shown as a branch of Line 1, or as another Line # sharing the majority of Line 1's route.
Has anything similar been officially considered by the TTC? Considering the majority of Sheppard's riders are headed S/B in the AM peak, would there be merits to this?
AFAIK the N/B Yonge track leads to Sheppard E/B. With ATC in a place and one or two new crossovers, I can't really see why this would be an extreme challenge or costly endeavour. As for wayfinding, the second interline on Sheppard could be shown as a branch of Line 1, or as another Line # sharing the majority of Line 1's route.
Has anything similar been officially considered by the TTC? Considering the majority of Sheppard's riders are headed S/B in the AM peak, would there be merits to this?
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Voltz
Senior Member
There is no westbound to southbound track at Sheppard/Yonge. The trains would have to go into the tail tracks and reverse direction to do this, which is not that big of a deal if such an arrangement is worth it.
But I'm not sure this would be worth doing. The demand mainly to Finch, not Don Mills.
lead82
Senior Member
If the Sheppard line is ever extended west to Downsview I could fully see a joint alignment to York U or Pioneer Village to get an east-west line. The Yonge line is full and without a third track all trains must go to Finch. Try going to Finch station in the morning, any delay over 5 mins and the platform is jam packed. Trains running at 2:30 apart are almost full today.
44 North
Senior Member
I was imagining that trains would share the single-track junction from Yonge to Sheppard (but obviously not at the same time). So with computerized/automated operation the Wb->Sb and Nb->Eb would hold as each one passes through. Was just wondering if this seems realistic, or if the current high frequencies (and regulations?) would make it too tall an order.
The highest demand is obviously at Finch, but with Sheppard becoming a branch of Yonge theoretically Don Mills station should see a significant uptick in peak period demand with this shift in operation. I'm not thinking half the Line 1 trains would use Sheppard, but perhaps a dynamic approach where between 1/3 to 1/5 terminate at Don Mills?
denfromoakvillemilton
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I think what's going to happen is that is that the YUS and Sheppard line will alternate, with ever other train going to VCC. Same with Sheppard. Frequency north of Sheppard West on YUS and Sheppard will be 10 min each, with a train going every 5 minutes to VCC.
44 North
Senior Member
Which do you think is more likely, a Sheppard West extn, East, or both? And I guess what's the UT consensus on the matter?
Was under the impression the biggest reason to connect Yonge to Downsview was to access Wilson Yard, not so much ridership demand. But with the proposed new underground storage yard in Richmond Hill, connecting to Wilson isn't so much a priority anymore. Not sure about this, but wouldn't connecting Sheppard to Downsview also compound Yonge's capacity issues?
BurlOak
Senior Member
I agree with interlining Sheppard with Spadina.
alternating trains from Don Mills go to Vaughan and Yorkdale/Union/Finch.
At rush, the Sheppard-Vaughan (purple) would be every 8 minutes, while the Sheppard-Allen-University-Yonge (purple) is also every 8 minutes. (in red is the scheduled short-turn, which is every 4 minutes).
On Sheppard. Train every 4 minutes, 1 going to Vaughan, 1 to downtown.
Spadina North. Train every 4 minutes, 1 going to Don Mills, 1 to downtown.
Spadina South to Yonge/Finch. Train every 2 minutes.
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Palma
Senior Member
If sheppard west does happen to downsview, many people would have stayed on if the line eventually ventured south but as the spadina extension has now been extended further west into Vaughan people will not stay on. Many times I had a choice when getting on dundas whether to go to yonge, transfer to go to St George and then transfer to go north on Spadina or go south at Dundas and go around the Union loop and avoid a transfer. The decision was which way would take longer taking into account the wait at Yonge and St George vs the few extra minutes to go around and no transfer. The time evened out and most of the times I chose to stay on and go around. I would have believed the same would have happened for the sheppard line if it went west to downsview and then south and of course hits St Andrews and Union. People would not need to worry about getting on the Yonge line and the crowds