Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[OneCity]

I understand what you are saying and I agree that we need to make other parts of our city more attractive to development. However, this has already been tried and failed. Building subways in suburbs is what gave us our current transportation problems now. Money was wasted on building huge capacity transit where it is not necessary. Look at Shepard now and Line 1 north extension. It’s empty and under developed. The transit is there but developers are not lining up to build along the route. Yes there is some development near VMC but its going to be much like NYCC - a dense residential cluster where some take subway downtown but most will drive around.

Building subway on Sheppard won’t solve anything. To make the suburbs more attractive requires a re-think of land use. It’s not enough to just have a few dense clusters of condos to justify massive infrastructure spending. There needs to be a full thought of how to make that area more attractive all along a transit corridor by adding density all along corridor, making the street more like a Main Street - denser, more shops and services. This requires a much much higher concentration of people and jobs. It also needs some catalyst to act as a cool node to attract some jobs. Let’s take Sheppard as an example. Perhaps having a start up zone or a high-tech office zone near Sheppard and Victoria Park / Consumers to attract start ups to move there. Build more live/work spaces that are cheap to attract artists and make the money place interesting to hang out in. The problem is that this area has not much interesting history or buildings to act like an anchor like old industrial buildings do in Liberty Village or Distillery or the Main Street feel of all the main downtown arterial with the at grade retail and pleasant walking experience. Build that to make the area more attractive and the people will come. Right now all the new condos are essentially built as vertical sprawl. Very self contained buildings with very little to nothing added to the public realm. Functional buildings but nothing more.

To say it 'wont solve anything' is not a fair statement. The challenges of land-use wasn't my point but I do agree it needs improvement in various areas and planning should always be reviewed as its an evolution. The issue with attracting business to these areas is not that difficult, but requires focused attention at the municipal level in all areas to attract. The City is currently enjoying the fruits of attentive planning and public investment from long ago in the Downtown areas and needs to start providing attentive ground work with the inner burbs future as well as focuisng on the difering needs facing Downtown from this boom. I have little to no doubt York region will succeed as all its Centres are suburban centers and they will do what it take to level the business playing field. But Toronto is far more geographically polarized politically as it often compares far different areas only to lose focus in dealing with various individual needs in a far more diverse City. Its clear these connected areas are already an attractive option for people to live, so the talent pool will be available.

My main issue was with those that ignore the the impact to both commuters and development from designed plans with poor connectivity of main Centres and the integrations into the infrastructure that currently exists. Expansion and relief has been severely underfunded in this City and that has polarized the debate but we finally have a plan that respect connectivity, key connection in addition ridership and use. And now that the worst of the geographical bickering is now out of the equation hopefully the consensus from above with the support of the individual plans locally will allow for a push towards a better funding path going forward.

Adding a transfer with LRT on Sheppard would have created and compounded a problem for both commuters and the attractiveness of have a Central connection as well. This is a line that will stand up to future growth for generations and provide great connected rapid transit for commuters that we can also improve better land-use planning around.

 

[nfitz]

Adding a transfer with LRT on Sheppard would have created and compounded a problem for both commuters ...

Walking across a platform compounds a problem of going up several flights of steps to get to the current bus?

No ....

Sure, converting Line 4 to LRT is clearly the better option - but building rapid transit on Sheppard East isn't compounding a problem.

 

[syn]

I understand what you are saying and I agree that we need to make other parts of our city more attractive to development. However, this has already been tried and failed. Building subways in suburbs is what gave us our current transportation problems now. Money was wasted on building huge capacity transit where it is not necessary. Look at Shepard now and Line 1 north extension. It’s empty and under developed. The transit is there but developers are not lining up to build along the route. Yes there is some development near VMC but its going to be much like NYCC - a dense residential cluster where some take subway downtown but most will drive around.

Building subway on Sheppard won’t solve anything. To make the suburbs more attractive requires a re-think of land use. It’s not enough to just have a few dense clusters of condos to justify massive infrastructure spending. There needs to be a full thought of how to make that area more attractive all along a transit corridor by adding density all along corridor, making the street more like a Main Street - denser, more shops and services. This requires a much much higher concentration of people and jobs. It also needs some catalyst to act as a cool node to attract some jobs. Let’s take Sheppard as an example. Perhaps having a start up zone or a high-tech office zone near Sheppard and Victoria Park / Consumers to attract start ups to move there. Build more live/work spaces that are cheap to attract artists and make the money place interesting to hang out in. The problem is that this area has not much interesting history or buildings to act like an anchor like old industrial buildings do in Liberty Village or Distillery or the Main Street feel of all the main downtown arterial with the at grade retail and pleasant walking experience. Build that to make the area more attractive and the people will come. Right now all the new condos are essentially built as vertical sprawl. Very self contained buildings with very little to nothing added to the public realm. Functional buildings but nothing more.

This is an outstanding post.

My comments weren't suggesting that people only want to live downtown, but that it's clearly the most desirable location in Toronto for commercial & residential development.

Suburban subway proponents are quick to suggest that suburban residents deserve easier downtown access, so I'm not sure why this revelation is such a surprise.

The truth is, corridors like Sheppard are quite a few generations away from justifying a subway. Having two subway lines converging at McCowan and Sheppard is a foolish idea when there's so many other areas of need. As you pointed out, a few condo farms won't change that.

I realize an LRT is not convenient given there's already a subway line there, but generally speaking LRTs can be helpful in creating a more vibrant street culture and pedestrian friendly environments. That's exactly what's necessary if these areas are to become subway worthy corridors with a significant mix residential and commercial activity.

 

[Rainforest]

Now what if for example a line was built in downtown that DID NOT connect with Line 2, such as a line on King from Liberty Village GO to East Harbour GO with much smaller stop spacing than currently proposed? Would anyone living in downtown use the line and would it spur a lot of development?

Such a line would see decent ridership.

The amount of "new" development encouraged by that line may be limited due to the fact that much development along that corridor is happening anyway. Once you put highrises in a parcel of land, you won't raise them and replace with even taller highrises anytime soon.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Ironically enough, the lack of Downtown transit is likely playing a role in the increasing development we see downtown. The appeal of living downtown is that you’re close enough to work to walk or bike and avoid public transit. Indeed, if you look at the stats you’ll see that downtown-to-downtown commuters have a surprisingly low transit modal share.

Some of these people choosing to live Downtown would likely live in the suburbs, if they had a reliable way to get downtown. But they don’t, hence their decision to live downtown. Building the DRL only makes it easier for suburban residents to get downtown, increasing the development appeal of the suburbs.

If the DRL were built up to Sheppard, i‘d bet a good dollar that we‘d see a substantial boost in residential development around Sheppard and Don Mills. Why wouldn’t we? Those people would be roughly 20 mins from the downtown core, while enjoying the relative comfort and lower property costs of the inner suburbs. It would certainly be an appealing location for me

Office development capacity downtown clearly isn’t capped by transit capacity. If that were the case, we would not be seeing record low office vacancies. If people can’t get downtown on the subways or GO, they’ll just move downtown or areas adjacent to downtown. From a transport POV, downtown should continue to grow as we implement RER, increase streetcar capacity, increase bike lane coverage and increase sidewalk capacity on critical pedestrian routes, such as Yonge. All of those but RER are critical to ensure people can continue to commute within Downtown

You raise a good point, but even that is only true of a small portion of the population. Sure, walking and cycling are far more attractive downtown than in the suburbs, but most of the mode share it eats into is driving, not transit. The streetcar system is the backbone of downtown local transportation, and it carries over 300K passengers per day. Couple that with the subway and buses, and I wouldn't be surprised if unlinked ridership from those living downtown is between 500-600K rides per day (which is probably closer to 300-400K linked trips but that's beside the point). Sure, people can walk, but even in an area like Liberty Village, people still choose to take the 509 or the 511 over walking to their destination in most cases. I don't even blame them, the weather isn't always the best in this city.

Office development definitely is not capped because of suburban commuters (The Yonge line isn't even the only way to get downtown, you can take the University line, the 510, 511, use bikeshare, drive (but this option sucks), or take GO). You're much more limited when actually living downtown because GO is pretty much useless, owning a car is expensive, and you can't always walk/bike. Transit is the only real dependable option for most people living downtown, and they require a certain capacity to go about their day to day lives.

 

[Rainforest]

I understand what you are saying and I agree that we need to make other parts of our city more attractive to development. However, this has already been tried and failed. Building subways in suburbs is what gave us our current transportation problems now. Money was wasted on building huge capacity transit where it is not necessary. Look at Shepard now and Line 1 north extension. It’s empty and under developed. The transit is there but developers are not lining up to build along the route. Yes there is some development near VMC but its going to be much like NYCC - a dense residential cluster where some take subway downtown but most will drive around.

At least 3 subway radii into the 416's inner suburbs have to be characterized as "tried and succeeded": Finch, Kipling, Kennedy. Those lines see very decent ridership, they help the suburban residents reach downtown faster, and they help the downtown businesses attract the workforce.

The Spadina radius is less successful (although it helps by diverting trips from the busy Yonge line), and Sheppard subway is either overbuilt or is built prematurely. That doesn't mean any subway into suburbs is a waste.

Building subway on Sheppard won’t solve anything. To make the suburbs more attractive requires a re-think of land use. It’s not enough to just have a few dense clusters of condos to justify massive infrastructure spending. There needs to be a full thought of how to make that area more attractive all along a transit corridor by adding density all along corridor, making the street more like a Main Street - denser, more shops and services. This requires a much much higher concentration of people and jobs. It also needs some catalyst to act as a cool node to attract some jobs. Let’s take Sheppard as an example. Perhaps having a start up zone or a high-tech office zone near Sheppard and Victoria Park / Consumers to attract start ups to move there. Build more live/work spaces that are cheap to attract artists and make the money place interesting to hang out in. The problem is that this area has not much interesting history or buildings to act like an anchor like old industrial buildings do in Liberty Village or Distillery or the Main Street feel of all the main downtown arterial with the at grade retail and pleasant walking experience. Build that to make the area more attractive and the people will come. Right now all the new condos are essentially built as vertical sprawl. Very self contained buildings with very little to nothing added to the public realm. Functional buildings but nothing more.

Attractiveness of an area depends on many factors, transit being just one of them, and not the most important one. I don't think anyone has a recipe for creating a new downtown in any selected area. The historical factor might actually be the most important one: people flock to the area that already stands out and has things to offer.

If subway stations don't create downtowns, nor will light rail stops or any other transit improvements. IMO, addressing the existing travel patterns should be first priority, making the transit trips faster and more reliable.

 

[OneCity]

This is an outstanding post.

My comments weren't suggesting that people only want to live downtown, but that it's clearly the most desirable location in Toronto for commercial & residential development.

Suburban subway proponents are quick to suggest that suburban residents deserve easier downtown access, so I'm not sure why this revelation is such a surprise.

The truth is, corridors like Sheppard are quite a few generations away from justifying a subway. Having two subway lines converging at McCowan and Sheppard is a foolish idea when there's so many other areas of need. As you pointed out, a few condo farms won't change that.

I realize an LRT is not convenient given there's already a subway line there, but generally speaking LRTs can be helpful in creating a more vibrant street culture and pedestrian friendly environments. That's exactly what's necessary if these areas are to become subway worthy corridors with a significant mix residential and commercial activity.

I completely agree with your last statement. I think we disagree is the importance of connectivity as well as where the LRTs belong and are most effectively connected into the greater network.

 

[kEiThZ]

Will keep saying this....

Want to fight off a subway extension? Push for LRT conversion of the existing subway. This will be much easier when Eglinton opens.

Insisting that LRT has to be built with a transfer at Don Mills if how you'll get a Sheppard subway till McCowan.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Will keep saying this....

Want to fight off a subway extension? Push for LRT conversion of the existing subway. This will be much easier when Eglinton opens.

Insisting that LRT has to be built with a transfer at Don Mills if how you'll get a Sheppard subway till McCowan.

An LRT conversion would cost more than the subway cost to construct. Wait until the Relief line is built north to sheppard before we decide what should be done on sheppard. Maybe ridership will stagnate and LRT will make sense, maybe the relief line will be built to Victoria park and line 4 will be extended there, with a Sheppard East LRT, maybe east riders will avoid using the relief line (then we should convert the subway to high floor LRT), it's too early to decide what's best for Sheppard, there are too many variables right now.

 

[11th]

Will keep saying this....

Want to fight off a subway extension? Push for LRT conversion of the existing subway. This will be much easier when Eglinton opens.

Insisting that LRT has to be built with a transfer at Don Mills if how you'll get a Sheppard subway till McCowan.

There are already complaints about the vehicle choice (low floor) and the barebone surface stops. How will it be easier?
Then there will always be the drivers who scream about turning Sheppard into the next Highway 7.

 

[kEiThZ]

There are already complaints about the vehicle choice (low floor) and the barebone surface stops. How will it be easier?

Sure. But there aren't users yet. Once some of those who are on buses move to the LRT, you'll have a really strong support base for LRT.

Then there will always be the drivers who scream about turning Sheppard into the next Highway 7.

And again, they can be balanced off by those who will want an extension. Especially as Sheppard keeps developing and getting more crowded. The subway also becomes a harder sell if it's stopping at McCowan. Could sell the LRT as a transferless ride from the Zoo to Downsview.

 

[Hopkins123]

Sure. But there aren't users yet. Once some of those who are on buses move to the LRT, you'll have a really strong support base for LRT.

And again, they can be balanced off by those who will want an extension. Especially as Sheppard keeps developing and getting more crowded. The subway also becomes a harder sell if it's stopping at McCowan. Could sell the LRT as a transferless ride from the Zoo to Downsview.

The Bloor-Danforth could actually wind up heading to the Zoo via the Seaton rail corridor though Malvern. Then perhaps the Sheppard Line could divert southeasternly after McCowan to Centennial and UTSC. This far east above-grade alignments could be explored minimizing the capital expense to build such extensions.

 

[nfitz]

The Bloor-Danforth could actually wind up heading to the Zoo via the Seaton rail corridor though Malvern.

The line through Malvern past the zoo is the CP main line to Belleville! I doubt there is much interest in coming anywhere near that. They'd be better off following the planned old SRT/Line 3 alignment north of Sheppard (perhaps even east of Scarborough Centre), if that's what they want to do - probably cheaper, and certainly with more density nearby.

 

[BurlOak]

The Bloor-Danforth could actually wind up heading to the Zoo via the Seaton rail corridor though Malvern. Then perhaps the Sheppard Line could divert southeasternly after McCowan to Centennial and UTSC. This far east above-grade alignments could be explored minimizing the capital expense to build such extensions.

Fixed it.
The Bloor-Danforth could actually wind up heading to the Zoo via the Seaton rail corridor though Malvern. Then perhaps the Sheppard Line could divert southeasternly after McCowan Kennedy to STC, Centennial and UTSC. This far east above-grade alignments could be explored minimizing the capital expense to build such extensions.

 

[Hopkins123]

^ That works too!