Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

[nfitz]

That is true, but I don't think it will reach 4,000. I don't even think it will reach 3,100 now that the subway is being extended. The total ridership will likely go up, but the peak point ridership will go down.

I think you've got it backwards. I live near Woodbine Station and used to work near Don Mills Station. The subway to Pape and the 25 bus used to be the fastest way. But if it was only 5 stops to Sheppard/McCowan, and then an LRT ride to Don Mills station, suddenly that is the quickest way to get to work in AM peak. That certainly wouldn't be the case with the current modelling if I had to change to LRT at Kennedy, then again at Sheppard/Markham.

There would be additional riders heading east near Don Mills that wouldn't have been there before, in addition to the losses that might backtrack to McCowan to go downtown.

 

[ehlow]

there is also the fact that we are so far into this already I would rather just build it and get done with it.

This is how I feel as well. I would have been fine with BRT as well, but I'm generally tired of the constant plan-changing and flip flopping. I also don't want to wait another 3-4 years for more EAs and public consultations and design work before something is actually built.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Me too. I feel if council goes back to the subway, we won't see it for 10 years just like BD.

 

[gweed123]

And I do agree that if there were an alternative proposal that would better spend the ~$650 Million we should support it. But seeing that there has not been any alternative proposal I think the LRT is the best option (especially b/c lower ongoing operatings costs). And I don't think that anyone wants to risk reopening the Sheppard Subway debate.

But it seems like, with the delay in the start of construction of the Sheppard East LRT, that the Province is almost wanting to re-look at it. I mean, they could have restarted construction a couple years ago if they really wanted to, considering it was shovel ready. Why the delay?

I think you've got it backwards. I live near Woodbine Station and used to work near Don Mills Station. The subway to Pape and the 25 bus used to be the fastest way. But if it was only 5 stops to Sheppard/McCowan, and then an LRT ride to Don Mills station, suddenly that is the quickest way to get to work in AM peak. That certainly wouldn't be the case with the current modelling if I had to change to LRT at Kennedy, then again at Sheppard/Markham.

There would be additional riders heading east near Don Mills that wouldn't have been there before, in addition to the losses that might backtrack to McCowan to go downtown.

That seems to be a pretty unusual trip pattern though. There are probably many more trip patterns that, assuming there was no subway to McCowan & Sheppard, would take the Sheppard East LRT to Don Mills in order to access the subway. But if the subway is there, how many people living between say McCowan and Warden, would choose to 'backtrack' back to McCowan and access the subway that way, instead of going west to Don Mills? You've just turned AM WB riders into AM EB riders. Add to that the number of people from east of McCowan who would transfer to the subway there instead of continuing on to Don Mills, and you've just lowered your peak point ridership by a fair margin.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

In honour of the title under my name changing from New UT Member to just UT Member I'm going to be very opinionated on this subject!

The fact is that the SELRT is the best choice for network connectivity on Sheppard East and even if the ridership is still within BRT territory on opening day it'll slowly and carefully - eventually - grow to be LRT-worthy. And also, is there any reason that a temporary BRT (painted bus lanes - Sheppard is a pretty wide road) can't be set up on Sheppard East until the LRT is constructed?

My personal favourite plan for the Sheppard Question such as it is is the existing LRT plan which if I remember correctly involved a same-platform transfer to the subway at Don Mills, with the ultimate goal of converting the Sheppard Subway tunnel to LRT operation, extending it west to Downsview, and then north to link up with the FWLRT. Toronto still needs a continuous northern crosstown line, and that's better than nothing. Certainly better than an expensive and perpetually underused extension of the hole-in-the-ground subway eastward.

 

[ehlow]

In honour of the title under my name changing from New UT Member to just UT Member I'm going to be very opinionated on this subject!

The fact is that the SELRT is the best choice for network connectivity on Sheppard East and even if the ridership is still within BRT territory on opening day it'll slowly and carefully - eventually - grow to be LRT-worthy. And also, is there any reason that a temporary BRT (painted bus lanes - Sheppard is a pretty wide road) can't be set up on Sheppard East until the LRT is constructed?

My personal favourite plan for the Sheppard Question such as it is is the existing LRT plan which if I remember correctly involved a same-platform transfer to the subway at Don Mills, with the ultimate goal of converting the Sheppard Subway tunnel to LRT operation, extending it west to Downsview, and then north to link up with the FWLRT. Toronto still needs a continuous northern crosstown line, and that's better than nothing. Certainly better than an expensive and perpetually underused extension of the hole-in-the-ground subway eastward.

Congrats!

My main issue with the Subway to LRT conversion of Sheppard is that you somehow have to justify spending hundreds of million dollars (billions?) to replace the underground trains with narrower underground trains (ha ha) while there's a huge list of projects better spend the money on.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

But it seems like, with the delay in the start of construction of the Sheppard East LRT, that the Province is almost wanting to re-look at it. I mean, they could have restarted construction a couple years ago if they really wanted to, considering it was shovel ready. Why the delay?

Scarborough Liberal Caucus, that's why.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

Congrats!

My main issue with the Subway to LRT conversion of Sheppard is that you somehow have to justify spending hundreds of million dollars (billions?) to replace the underground trains with narrower underground trains (ha ha) while there's a huge list of projects better spend the money on.

Thanks!

It is true that there's a list of projects to better spend the money on, DRL being the first to come to mind. Really, higher-order transit of any kind on Sheppard is lower on the priorities list than a lot of other projects. Given an ideal situation in which we had a handful of money and were given the task of determining the future of transit on Sheppard, I think the case could be made to retrofit the tunnel for LRT even if the only major benefit is connection to the Spadina Subway and through-running with FWLRT. Plus it would settle the "what to do with the existing Sheppard Subway" question once and for all!

 

[Dan416]

It's interesting that some people's reasons for liking the SELRT are the exact reasons I dislike it (i.e. it would make it impossible to finish the Sheppard subway).

I cannot support doing anything that would turn the Sheppard line into a permanent stub. What kind of transit planning is that? It's so petty it drives me bonkers. There's so many more important things to spend money on than giving the finger to people like Rob Ford and Mel Lastman.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's interesting that some people's reasons for liking the SELRT are the exact reasons I dislike it (i.e. it would make it impossible to finish the Sheppard subway).

I cannot support doing anything that would turn the Sheppard line into a permanent stub. What kind of transit planning is that? It's so petty it drives me bonkers. There's so many more important things to spend money on than giving the finger to people like Rob Ford and Mel Lastman.

It won't turn it into a permanent stub. Just a stopgap measure to bring higher order transit to the area for the next 50 to 100 years or so (or whenever Sheppard East is ready for a subway; about ~15,000 pphpd I'm estimating).

 

[MrsNesbitt]

It won't turn it into a permanent stub. Just a stopgap measure to bring higher order transit to the area for the next 50 to 100 years or so (or whenever Sheppard East is ready for a subway; about ~15,000 pphpd I'm estimating).

Indeed. If Sheppard East eventually warrants subway level service (key word being eventually) then the LRT there wouldn't stop a subway from being built instead. By that point the LRT would be probably over 50 years old (as you said)

As it stands extending the Sheppard Subway eastward would be tremendously fiscally irresponsible.

 

[GenerationW]

As it stands extending the Sheppard Subway eastward would be tremendously fiscally irresponsible.

That depends. Going two stops to Victoria Park and then BRT the rest of the way would probably be a decent political and financial compromise. We'd be tunneling a good deal of the way to V.P. anyway with the LRT proposal.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

That depends. Going two stops to Victoria Park and then BRT the rest of the way would probably be a decent political and financial compromise. We'd be tunneling a good deal of the way to V.P. anyway with the LRT proposal.

Yes tunnel to Consumers or Victoria Park would be acceptable (and probably a better end for a stub than Don Mills). Any further into Scarborough is where it really starts to get ridiculous.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It starts to get ridiculous east of Yonge street.

 

[gweed123]

In honour of the title under my name changing from New UT Member to just UT Member I'm going to be very opinionated on this subject!

The fact is that the SELRT is the best choice for network connectivity on Sheppard East and even if the ridership is still within BRT territory on opening day it'll slowly and carefully - eventually - grow to be LRT-worthy. And also, is there any reason that a temporary BRT (painted bus lanes - Sheppard is a pretty wide road) can't be set up on Sheppard East until the LRT is constructed?

My personal favourite plan for the Sheppard Question such as it is is the existing LRT plan which if I remember correctly involved a same-platform transfer to the subway at Don Mills, with the ultimate goal of converting the Sheppard Subway tunnel to LRT operation, extending it west to Downsview, and then north to link up with the FWLRT. Toronto still needs a continuous northern crosstown line, and that's better than nothing. Certainly better than an expensive and perpetually underused extension of the hole-in-the-ground subway eastward.

Haha, your opinion is very much welcome!

I feel that there are three valid short/midterm options for Sheppard East:

1) Build BRT lanes from Consumers to McCowan, with queue jump lanes east of McCowan. West of McCowan needs full lanes, but east of there the ridership will probably be low enough that QJ will do. Obviously the west end may be a problem, but lacking the capital necessary to reconfigure/rebuild the Sheppard/404 interchange to accommodate BRT lanes, queue jump lanes heading over the 404 may be the most cost effective option.

2) Extend the subway to Victoria Park, BRT lanes from Vic Park to McCowan, queue jump lanes east of McCowan. Naturally, the BRT lanes can be completed before the subway extension, but at least then you get a semi-permanent transfer facility at Vic Park.

3) Build the SELRT, and convert the Sheppard Subway to an LRT tunnel. I've mentioned this before, but the cost of extending the subway to Downsview as a subway vs extending the line to Downsview as an LRT + doing a conversion of the existing subway to LRT is pretty much the same cost. Build a connector LRT up Dufferin to Finch to connect to the FWLRT and you have a really nice northern crosstown.

Each of those options has its pluses and its negatives. Some are technical, some are political. Option 3 will probably have to wait until Eglinton opens, because right now it's a political non-starter. Option 1 could be framed as a 'cash saving' measure, while Option 2 is a compromise with pro-subway advocates.