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Proposal Grows to 42 Storeys at Bayview and Sheppard
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saveoursubways (SOS)

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Okay, I'll make this a safe-zone from awesome one-line sarcastic comments. (Wait, one last one: Way to name yourselves after a famous NIMBY group, dudes.)

Here's the thing. I'm man enough to admit that at best I might use any kind of transit in the Sheppard corridor once or twice a year to get to the Zoo or the Science Centre. I'm not personally invested in it and, honestly, if there was a fully-funded subway project ready to break ground immediately, I'd assuredly support that continuing.

My investment into this topic boils down to my being pro-transit. I do not share the belief that some seem to have that new transit projects are inevitable and that all we need to do is draw lines on a map and say 'subway here!' It is not so much a battle that's LRT v. Subway, it's LRT v. Subway v. Nothing. Successful opposition to Transit City could quite easily backfire and lead to a period of more conservative planning, pushing back the projects that would really impact my life like the downtown relief line.

But that said, you guys are definitely motivated and I'm obviously not going to stop you from going forward, so why don't I offer some tips?

1. Don't seem CRAZY. Nothing will kill this faster than you guys going on about how David Miller is just wickedly obsessed with LRT and this is all his evil scheme to screw over Scarborough and Adam Giambrone is just a giant tool in a suit. Pinning all of TC on David Miller - ignoring the scores of planners, politicians and bearded transit advocates who have spent years of their lives working on it - is both disrespectful and politicizes a issue that is really apolitical.

2. Stay on MESSAGE. If you get any traction with this, you'll end up getting people who support your base cause but also want to rant about how much they hate bike lanes or believe that we should also look at a tunnelled Spadina expressway. This is dangerous because you risk fracturing your base. Keep it simple and focused.

3. Source EVERYTHING. A lot of the TC threads seem to devolve into people posting laundry lists of subway projects with their 'projected' cost beside them. These always seem random. Part of a grassroots movement is recognizing that you're not experts in the cost of building rail transit and that there are still unknowns out there. Be humble, acknowledge this, and make sure any cost estimates you do use are incredibly well-sourced and consistent.

4. Be LOCAL. I get that Coruscanti Cognoscente cares a whole lot about this, but his Mississauga address makes him a terrible spokesperson for this movement. You're going to need someone to serve as the spokesperson who gets quoted in articles about this - assuming you make it that far - and it should be someone who will live near a TC line. Keith would be good at this.

Good luck.
 
EnviroTO said:
True, but nowhere near what would require a subway for all three.
Click to expand...

What does a subway require? By today's standards we would not have built the Bloor-Danforth line. It would have gotten at-grade Transit City LRT. There should be a sense of a bigger picture beyond cut-and-dry arbitrarily imposed limits.
 
Hypothetical question: if you are successful and you get the SRT rebuild cancelled. A few years of new environmental and engineering work into the Bloor-Danforth extension, and then the subway extension get's brushed off the page by a future Premier. And the SRT continues to rot for many more years, with vehicles dropping off like flies.

Hypothetically, if this is your success, will you be proud of your accomplishment?
 
GM. Thanks for your advice. And we have discussed several off those points already off-screen (so to speak). I am weary about growing the campaign too fast.

Personally I would prefer a strong campaign targeting Scarborough. Scarberians have an almost visceral hatred for the SRT and the Kennedy station transfer. Reminding them that the SELRT means duplication of the same situation at Don Mills (especially now that Metrolinx does not want a same-platform transfer) is sure to rouse more focus on this line.

We aren't out to cancel anything. We want Transit City tweaked so that we get a real transit focused city. It's unfortunate we are having this debate now. But better late than never.
 
kettal said:
Hypothetical question: if you are successful and you get the SRT rebuild cancelled. A few years of new environmental and engineering work into the Bloor-Danforth extension, and then the subway extension get's brushed off the page by a future Premier. And the SRT continues to rot for many more years, with vehicles dropping off like flies.

Hypothetically, if this is your success, will you be proud of your accomplishment?
Click to expand...

Must be depressing to be that pessimistic or have such low expectations. Do you tell your kids not to try because they might risk failing?

Let's say your scenario came to pass (highly unlikely but let's entertain it), the SRT would eventually fail and everyone would be bussing it to Kennedy (already the plan for Transit City by the way). I am fairly sure that pretty quickly transit would become the number one issue sufficient to get suburbanites to actually vote. The Miller types would stand a chance in this scenario. And if it didn't the clogged streets from hundreds of thousands of Scarberians and eastern GTA residents driving would be enough of a pain to everybody else to compel action. However, I prefer to focus on the upside inside of constantly worrying about catastrophic failure.
 
Optimism is nice, but you have to consider all likely outcomes of your actions.

For example, do you think CUPE would have gone on strike if they truly considered how the strike could lead to the election of an anti-union mayor in the next election?

It's certainly worth considering that scenario, as well as the risk of cursing the whole realm of transit expansion with a reputation for being impossible, or prone to eternal stagnation, and politicians will go back to ignoring transit like they have for the past 20 years.
 
Fair enough. We've considered it. We don't agree with your assessment and we're moving on with our efforts.

ps. If we are anywhere close to that successful, I will truly be surprised. My modest goal is just to promote more informed dialogue among the citizenry, particularly in Scarborough where TC impacts the most.
 
Ok, I hope you accomplish what you set out for.

But if it backfires, I will be one unhappy pappy.
 
GraphicMatt said:
Okay, I'll make this a safe-zone from awesome one-line sarcastic comments. (Wait, one last one: Way to name yourselves after a famous NIMBY group, dudes.)

Here's the thing. I'm man enough to admit that at best I might use any kind of transit in the Sheppard corridor once or twice a year to get to the Zoo or the Science Centre. I'm not personally invested in it and, honestly, if there was a fully-funded subway project ready to break ground immediately, I'd assuredly support that continuing.

My investment into this topic boils down to my being pro-transit. I do not share the belief that some seem to have that new transit projects are inevitable and that all we need to do is draw lines on a map and say 'subway here!' It is not so much a battle that's LRT v. Subway, it's LRT v. Subway v. Nothing. Successful opposition to Transit City could quite easily backfire and lead to a period of more conservative planning, pushing back the projects that would really impact my life like the downtown relief line.

But that said, you guys are definitely motivated and I'm obviously not going to stop you from going forward, so why don't I offer some tips?

1. Don't seem CRAZY. Nothing will kill this faster than you guys going on about how David Miller is just wickedly obsessed with LRT and this is all his evil scheme to screw over Scarborough and Adam Giambrone is just a giant tool in a suit. Pinning all of TC on David Miller - ignoring the scores of planners, politicians and bearded transit advocates who have spent years of their lives working on it - is both disrespectful and politicizes a issue that is really apolitical.

2. Stay on MESSAGE. If you get any traction with this, you'll end up getting people who support your base cause but also want to rant about how much they hate bike lanes or believe that we should also look at a tunnelled Spadina expressway. This is dangerous because you risk fracturing your base. Keep it simple and focused.

3. Source EVERYTHING. A lot of the TC threads seem to devolve into people posting laundry lists of subway projects with their 'projected' cost beside them. These always seem random. Part of a grassroots movement is recognizing that you're not experts in the cost of building rail transit and that there are still unknowns out there. Be humble, acknowledge this, and make sure any cost estimates you do use are incredibly well-sourced and consistent.

4. Be LOCAL. I get that Coruscanti Cognoscente cares a whole lot about this, but his Mississauga address makes him a terrible spokesperson for this movement. You're going to need someone to serve as the spokesperson who gets quoted in articles about this - assuming you make it that far - and it should be someone who will live near a TC line. Keith would be good at this.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Using the SOS name was calculated and subversive. We took their initials and turned it into a force for good. Although we don't really call ourselves SOS much. It's Save Our Subways.

As for your other points I agree with all of them except #4. I may be Mississauga, but I have done the Kennedy transfer (okay, it was once to STC, and then back). Regardless. I don't see how my "Mississauga address" (which is not on here anyway, my location is listed as "Imperial City") is relevant. I may not know Sheppard as well as others, but I recognize throwing good money after bad when I see it. And over 70% of UT members agree with SOS on the Sheppard issue (and probably an even higher number for SRT).

I think you're getting waaaaay too geographic when it comes to local. Would you say the same if I lived in Etobicoke? Would that hurt my case? Are we allowed to be critical of China for human rights abuses if we've never witnessed it with our eyes, even though we've heard first-hand accounts?

My only problem with is it that I'm not as familiar with the area as others are. But I've been on UT since it was on EZboard. So I've learned quite a bit about Scarborough and Sheppard and Malvern since then. Even still, I cannot speak for Scarberians as I am not one. You're right: I can't walk and down Sheppard and petition them to join SOS.

Look at this way: if I formed a group calling for building a subway line on Hurontario, you'd have every right to call me crazy, even though you've never been to Mississauga and most of the people on this board are extremely unfamiliar with Mississauga.

So don't overplay your "Mississauga address" card.
 
kEiThZ said:
By today's standards we would not have built the Bloor-Danforth line. It would have gotten at-grade Transit City LRT.
Click to expand...
Where on earth did you come up with that? Given that the TTC is studying new subway south of Danforth/Pape because they now at-grade (or tunelled) LRT doesn't give them enough capacity, why would you say that Bloor-Danforth would be at-surface LRT? Even Eglinton isn't at-surface LRT.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
Using the SOS name was calculated and subversive. We took their initials and turned it into a force for good.
Click to expand...
Oh, I thought you'd turned it into a force of evil, to cancel the Sheppard LRT. :)

Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
So don't overplay your "Mississauga address" card.
Click to expand...
It does make me wonder what your local councillor is going to say when you approach him! Seriously though, clearly you can't front this in public ... it needs to be local.

And you need a catchphrase, like "stinky diesels" ... perhaps if you could paint a picture of small children dying of old-age waiting for their streetcar to get a green light ...
 
You should make a poster with dismembered body parts scattered along some LRT tracks, and the tagline "Just when you thought it would be safe to cross the road"

EDIT: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT DO A GOOGLE IMAGE SEARCH FOR "DISMEMBERED BODY PARTS"!!!
 
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