kEiThZ
Superstar
Put up the proposed map here when you guys have it. We can use some input from the wider community.
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saveoursubways (SOS)
- Thread starter kEiThZ
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kEiThZ
Superstar
GM, nfitz, kettal. Feel free to contribute and even critique some of our work if you want. But please don't be disruptive just because you disagree with our efforts. If you vehemently disagree with us, you are, of course, free to put forward a similar undertaking in support of Transit City. This thread is not the place for it.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Yup. Malvern is the deep red in the southeastern part of the map right?
On Finch East. I'd argue that while the development seems centred on Finch it tends to be oriented along the North/South streets. That may be the format of the mapping software though. I don't think it's that big a deal to ask riders to travel one concession road south to Sheppard though. Considering we'd be linking up the large transit nodes of York and potentially STC. Finch residents would then have the option of riding to the Yonge line for downtown trips or riding to Sheppard for York, York Centre, or STC trips
I think the map does clearly show where the higher order (read subway) corridors should be. Sheppard/Finch East, Central Eglinton, Downtown (Queen), and Don Mills (DRL)
Dan416
Senior Member
Oh, I thought you'd turned it into a force of evil, to cancel the Sheppard LRT.
It does make me wonder what your local councillor is going to say when you approach him! Seriously though, clearly you can't front this in public ... it needs to be local.
And you need a catchphrase, like "stinky diesels" ... perhaps if you could paint a picture of small children dying of old-age waiting for their streetcar to get a green light ...
Clearly SOS needs someone who lives in the Sheppard area to talk to people in the area, distribute fliers and such. As for a spokesperson, I don't see how it matters who that is. A spokesperson is a spokesperson. They're there to clarify a group's position and speak for them. That said, it would be helpful if our Sheppard point person could do double duty as a spokesperson.
Personally I think you'd have to be pretty dumb to get hit by an LRV. But I'm sure it's happened. Dumb people manage to drive in the streetcar ROW on the harbourfront after all.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
The flip side of the coin is. I am pro transit, not whatever mode our government has chosen to force down our throats. I think in my case that much is clear in my opposition to the Spadina subway extension to Vaughan. Which I feel should be stopped at Steeles west and continued north as a LRT.
GenerationW
Senior Member
Okay, but it would take an act of God to stop that project. It's a done deal.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Read the sentence previous to the one you commented. Just because it's approved and in the works doesn't mean I have to agree that it's the correct plan.
nfitz
Superstar
What are you talking about? I'm trying to be constructive here ... I'm quite serious when I say you shouldn't let someone from out-of-town front this in public; and that you need a good sound-bite like "stinky diesels".
Fresh Start
Banned
Sorry I'm late to the party.
The subway doesn't have to literally penetrate everywhere! But you have to realize how a subway crossing Sheppard by Victoria Park would benefit passengers along that corridor; and how riders along Finch, Steeles and Ellesmere would likely rather switch onto it then incur like 50 bus stops en route to the Yonge Line. McCowan buses would now be feeding into a Scarborough Centre Subway Station directly linked to downtown and uptown (NYCC) rather than transferring modes. Markham and Malvern, would now be within 20 minutes of the subway; and who's to say a truncated LRT between SCC and Malvern Town Centre via Centennial College couldn't be prioritized? Queen West would be bisected by virtually any form of the DRL chosen, so that is a moot point.
Subways don't have to- and it would've been nice for Miller/Giambrone to have thought of this- penetrate virtually every city ward to be of benefit to the community at large. As long as reliable and fast supply to major trip generators is guaranteed, the demand will follow. If the prototypical Transit City Line, 501 Queen, is any indication, long-distance light-rail lines can actually drop in ridership demand.
GenerationW
Senior Member
Fair enough.
junctionist
Senior Member
The idea that through strategic corridors intercepting well used bus routes and nodes, subway lines could improve transit quite substantially for many commuters and be well used in the suburbs is quite salient. And on top of that, corridors like Eglinton through Richview have so much land available for intensification.
kEiThZ
Superstar
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/9013661.html
Maybe this is why subway construction is cheap elsewhere!
Maybe this is why subway construction is cheap elsewhere!
andomano
Active Member
It's easy to say I'll support a group that wants to continue construction of higher order transit systems. The name saveoursubways is misinformation. It gives the notion that our current subways fate are in danger to be replaced by some inferior mode of transportation, not future ones.
On another note, supporting expansion on "ALL subway lines" is irresponsible. Let's face it, drawing lines further out into (especially the Northern) 905, is not going to help the transit woes of our own city.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Hey. We are just getting going. Not everything is going to be perfect (including the name). We picked a name that we thought was reasonable, clever and could be deployed on more than one campaign (Scarborough is only phase 1 hopefully).
Subways should end at a logical terminus. RHC is one. In a few years, VCC will be one. Don Mills will never be one. Kipling makes no sense either...Square one would be preferable or at least Sherway. The most egregious in my books is Kennedy. There is nothing around the station. The bulk of the ridership gets off and takes the SRT to either Lawrence East or STC. McCowan and Midland are glorified kiss n rides for STC, essentially. So doesn't it make sense for the B-D line to end at STC in the east and square one in the west?
andrewpmk
Senior Member
I have to disagree with this one.
The whole concept of LRT is to maximize the area served by higher-order transit. Building even Sheppard to STC and Bloor-Danforth to STC would consume a large chunk of the Transit City budget, and building the outer ends of Eglinton as a subway (even if cost savings are found by building cut-and-cover) would consume all of it. This would leave large swaths of the city with little or no improvement to transit service, as there would be no money for Transit City.
With an LRT-only plan, all of Toronto is within a much shorter feeder bus distance of LRT, as we can afford more lines for the same amount of money. Furthermore, expansion of the LRT network becomes much more realistic due to the vastly lower cost (as low as 1/10 of the cost for the least complex LRT lines). Finally, if an LRT becomes crowded, it is much more realistic to build a parallel line, such as Finch East for Sheppard, to relieve it, than to build a full subway line. Only when demand is so high that a parallel relief line is impossible, or the road is too narrow to accommodate surface LRT, does it make sense to build a subway.
As for the issue of long-distance trips: Neither subway or LRT (with frequent stops) are well suited for this task. Subway is only slightly faster than LRT with properly implemented signal priority. Ever tried taking the subway from Scarborough to Etobicoke? The best solution for long distance trips is (a) vastly improved GO train service (b) BRT or express rail along major highways, such as Highway 401, 403 and 407 and hydro corridors.
The whole concept of LRT is to maximize the area served by higher-order transit. Building even Sheppard to STC and Bloor-Danforth to STC would consume a large chunk of the Transit City budget, and building the outer ends of Eglinton as a subway (even if cost savings are found by building cut-and-cover) would consume all of it. This would leave large swaths of the city with little or no improvement to transit service, as there would be no money for Transit City.
With an LRT-only plan, all of Toronto is within a much shorter feeder bus distance of LRT, as we can afford more lines for the same amount of money. Furthermore, expansion of the LRT network becomes much more realistic due to the vastly lower cost (as low as 1/10 of the cost for the least complex LRT lines). Finally, if an LRT becomes crowded, it is much more realistic to build a parallel line, such as Finch East for Sheppard, to relieve it, than to build a full subway line. Only when demand is so high that a parallel relief line is impossible, or the road is too narrow to accommodate surface LRT, does it make sense to build a subway.
As for the issue of long-distance trips: Neither subway or LRT (with frequent stops) are well suited for this task. Subway is only slightly faster than LRT with properly implemented signal priority. Ever tried taking the subway from Scarborough to Etobicoke? The best solution for long distance trips is (a) vastly improved GO train service (b) BRT or express rail along major highways, such as Highway 401, 403 and 407 and hydro corridors.
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