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saveoursubways (SOS)

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Please keep the real world timeline in mond. The world is marching on while we're debating the map.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
No, the O'Connor station is at O'Connor. If a stop was at Cosburn, as there must be, it'd be called Cosburn. If you're gonna push a plan based on a map and the map has a whole bunch of random station and alignment choices, that's all anyone is going to notice.

Sheppard needs to run through the CN/CP interchange, which means turning off Sheppard at Kennedy. Having 3 GO/subway interchanges within a kilometre of each other instead of having all 3 lines connect in one place makes zero sense. You can't put GO stations that close together. There's a few stores at Glen Watford...that's it. The Midland bus would either run to the CN/CP station or to one along Progress, which could be closer to Brimley to serve an area slated for massive developments. The original alignment to STC is also shorter. There's no reason to change it.
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There are 2 stops within 200m of Cosburn (O'Connor and Mortimer). I'd say that's pretty decent coverage. Why would you want 1 stop at Cosburn (which neglets anything north of O'Connor and leaves a substantial gap between Cosburn and Danforth)? 200m isn't far to walk at all.

And as for the CN/CP interchange at Sheppard... it does run through there. Almost every to-scale map I've posted since we started this thing has had it running through there. The TTC-style maps I've posted aren't meant to have their alignments examined religiously. But yeah, I looked through all the to-scale versions of the maps, and every Scarborough map from v3 onwards (posted nearly a month ago), and every complete version to-scale map has had the Sheppard line passing directly through the CN/CP interchange.
 
gweed123 said:
There are 2 stops within 200m of Cosburn (O'Connor and Mortimer). I'd say that's pretty decent coverage. Why would you want 1 stop at Cosburn (which neglets anything north of O'Connor and leaves a substantial gap between Cosburn and Danforth)? 200m isn't far to walk at all.

And as for the CN/CP interchange at Sheppard... it does run through there. Almost every to-scale map I've posted since we started this thing has had it running through there. The TTC-style maps I've posted aren't meant to have their alignments examined religiously. But yeah, I looked through all the to-scale versions of the maps, and every Scarborough map from v3 onwards (posted nearly a month ago), and every complete version to-scale map has had the Sheppard line passing directly through the CN/CP interchange.
Click to expand...

Stations need to go where the people are. The people are at Cosburn. The bus on O'Connor can take the few people there *to* Cosburn, or to Broadview as happens now. If you have an area with a few hundred people and another area with a few thousand people, you make the few hundred people walk farther, not the few thousand.

Examining them religiously has nothing to do with it. Why go to the trouble of making one to suggest why a Sheppard subway extension is better than the LRT and not even put a station at Allanford/Kennedy? Why change the original Sheppard extension plan at all? If stations and alignments don't matter or are subject to change based on every single comment, don't make a map.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
Stations need to go where the people are. The people are at Cosburn. The bus on O'Connor can take the few people there *to* Cosburn, or to Broadview as happens now. If you have an area with a few hundred people and another area with a few thousand people, you make the few hundred people walk farther, not the few thousand.

Examining them religiously has nothing to do with it. Why go to the trouble of making one to suggest why a Sheppard subway extension is better than the LRT and not even put a station at Allanford/Kennedy? Why change the original Sheppard extension plan at all? If stations and alignments don't matter or are subject to change based on every single comment, don't make a map.
Click to expand...

I think you're being a little harsh. The majority of people aren't going to dissect every single station like UT members do. They'll see Sheppard extended to Downsview and STC. That's what matters. Not whether it stops at O'Connor or Cosburn (to me I couldn't care less either way).

Besides scarberian, if you wanted to have your say in stop locations, you should have joined the group, which we already invited you to over a month ago when we were drawing up our plans. By forfeiting the invitation, you forfeit the right to complain about our maps which we debated endlessly already.
 
Coruscanti Cognoscente said:
I think you're being a little harsh. The majority of people aren't going to dissect every single station like UT members do. They'll see Sheppard extended to Downsview and STC. That's what matters. Not whether it stops at O'Connor or Cosburn (to me I couldn't care less either way).

Besides scarberian, if you wanted to have your say in stop locations, you should have joined the group, which we already invited you to over a month ago when we were drawing up our plans. By forfeiting the invitation, you forfeit the right to complain about our maps which we debated endlessly already.
Click to expand...

The majority of people that actually have the power to change anything won't be swayed by a 'subways are awesome' argument. They need something a bit more concrete. Reasons why. "To connect the dots" might have worked if the city wasn't already convinced that the dots should be connected with LRT lines. Going to STC is less important than serving areas on the way to STC. With the DRL, people are/were pushing for more than a just the bare minimum express link necessary to avoid rebuilding Yonge & Bloor station...they're suggesting an extensive study be undertaken, one that considers the needs of downtown neighbourhoods, the impact on routes like the King streetcar, etc. The DRL, though, would be a new project, not something that replaces an existing or planned project.

If questions like stations and alignments were subject to "endless debate" and they still came through the process with random elements cobbled together by 'the consensus,' well, that's not the most constructive way to generate a workable vision. A map means doing this thing and not that thing, in this place and not that place. Why change the original plan for the Sheppard extension? Just to show you've thought it through? How can you even build community support if the lines skip entire communities? Allanford/Kennedy and Cosburn would be two of the busiest stations on their lines! That's all anyone from these areas will see on the map - what am I getting, how does it help me, how does it affect me.

It's not my fantasy map. You can either take simple common sense advice or leave it. If SOS is going to fight for a mega-billion dollar transit plan covering the whole city instead of, say, just extending the Danforth line to STC, the whole plan needs to make sense.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
Stations need to go where the people are. The people are at Cosburn. The bus on O'Connor can take the few people there *to* Cosburn, or to Broadview as happens now. If you have an area with a few hundred people and another area with a few thousand people, you make the few hundred people walk farther, not the few thousand.

Examining them religiously has nothing to do with it. Why go to the trouble of making one to suggest why a Sheppard subway extension is better than the LRT and not even put a station at Allanford/Kennedy? Why change the original Sheppard extension plan at all? If stations and alignments don't matter or are subject to change based on every single comment, don't make a map.
Click to expand...

Stations don't just go to where the people are, stations go to where they can have easy connections to other routes. Putting a station at O'Connor instead of Cosburn gives greater connectivity to bus routes, which, if it was located at Cosburn, would need to travel down Pape and then through non-major steets to get back to Broadview.

And realistically, 200m isn't far. Hell, we could even put in a Spadina-style walkway from O'Connor or Mortimer to reach Cosburn if it was found it was really needed. The fact is that 1 station between the DVP and the Danforth doesn't sufficiently service that area, and it leaves too far of a gap. I walk 300m up to Sherbourne station every day. It isn't that big of a deal. If the stations were placed soley on 'where the people are', the stop would be in the middle of St. Jamestown, and would make connections to the bus system a lot harder.

PS: I changed the station names to what it was in the originally proposed extension plan.
 
Updated version of the map, with a legend included.
 

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scarberiankhatru said:
The majority of people that actually have the power to change anything won't be swayed by a 'subways are awesome' argument. They need something a bit more concrete. Reasons why. "To connect the dots" might have worked if the city wasn't already convinced that the dots should be connected with LRT lines. Going to STC is less important than serving areas on the way to STC. With the DRL, people are/were pushing for more than a just the bare minimum express link necessary to avoid rebuilding Yonge & Bloor station...they're suggesting an extensive study be undertaken, one that considers the needs of downtown neighbourhoods, the impact on routes like the King streetcar, etc. The DRL, though, would be a new project, not something that replaces an existing or planned project.

If questions like stations and alignments were subject to "endless debate" and they still came through the process with random elements cobbled together by 'the consensus,' well, that's not the most constructive way to generate a workable vision. A map means doing this thing and not that thing, in this place and not that place. Why change the original plan for the Sheppard extension? Just to show you've thought it through? How can you even build community support if the lines skip entire communities? Allanford/Kennedy and Cosburn would be two of the busiest stations on their lines! That's all anyone from these areas will see on the map - what am I getting, how does it help me, how does it affect me.

It's not my fantasy map. You can either take simple common sense advice or leave it. If SOS is going to fight for a mega-billion dollar transit plan covering the whole city instead of, say, just extending the Danforth line to STC, the whole plan needs to make sense.
Click to expand...


I'm sorry Scarberian but a lot of your objections are unfounded. The only person turning this into an endless debate is you. How on earth can you complain about a 25-50m walk from the subway down to Cosburn then rationalize a 500 walk for anyone around Mortimer or 300m walk for patrons of the 8 bus? You do realize that the Bloor-Danforth subway is on average 25m north of its namesake? Ergo the spacing is justified. Furthermore a lot of those 10,000 residents that you speak of also live right off Gamble/Pape where I ascertain the "O'Connor" stop will have an exit out to. Have you taken a look at how the YUS line is spaced between Bloor and St Clair? Two stops in-between right? Mortimer and O'Connor stops are both needed as locally spaced bus stops will be gone from Pape. Furthermore there's a community college adjacent to one site and a vibrant shopping district and community centre near the other. They're needed. Anyway to settle this debate, I made a map on the fly of where the "O'Connor" stop proximately could fit in.

PAPEVILLAGESUBWAYSTN.jpg


I would think that the Kennedy stop would suffice for Allenford though I'm puzzled as to why we're seemingly repeating the mistake of the B-D line in excluding Birchmount. Did you guys not hear, it one of TO's most pedestrian unfriendly intersections. A lot of collisions occur when riders are darting across the road trying to transfer onto their connecting bus.

However I disagree with you on just pushing for one extension project, not when TC fiscally makes no sense (costs too much for what it promises to offer). It's not really at a loss to push for a rehaul of TC when Miller/Giambrone blantantly lied to the public regarding initial cost projections in order to win an election. If put to a referendum, most of the public would want subway expansion because of its proven advantages. You don't know how psychologically taxing the failures of the 501 and 512 streetcars are on the public's psyche. They will not want to see more the same, especially when the same amount of spending could have produced true rapid transit in a grade separated exclusive ROW for crosstown trips. But it won't take a half-hearted effort to instigate change. It will take the best ideas, publicity for our cause, unwavering determination and some luck to get the right message out there. Then it'll be up to the gov'ts whether they listen.
 
Fresh Start said:
They're needed. Anyway to settle this debate, I made a map on the fly of where the "O'Connor" stop proximately could fit in.
Click to expand...
That concept seems reaonable. The station box may be bit long. It looks to be about 200-metres ... which may be a shade long.

And such a stop would presumably be called O'Connor. The top entrance is only about 50 metres from O'Connor; even Woodville is only 100 metres. Compared to Greenwood which is over 200 metres to Greenwood Avenue, it's quiet close.
 
Juan_Lennon416 said:
Well if one cannot see something concrete by that date, it would be very difficult for some of us to believe you have a chance to sell your ideas and make changes to TTC's Transit City plan.
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While I generally have difficulty believing that changes can be made at this point, and particularly ones that will be so expensive, why December 22? What happens on the 23rd? Does the plan turn back into a pumpkin?
 
DavidH said:
While I generally have difficulty believing that changes can be made at this point, and particularly ones that will be so expensive, why December 22? What happens on the 23rd? Does the plan turn back into a pumpkin?
Click to expand...

Never underestimate the power of political changes. Just ask the people on Eglinton West, who, when construction began on the subway, thought they had it in the bag.

The benefit that we have is a lot of the lines we have proposed have previously been studied (throwing out the old transit OP and installing a new one doesn't mean the old one dissapears), so a lot of these lines can be fast-tracked (Sheppard, Eglinton West, etc). The DRL is currently being studied anyways, and the EA for the Eglinton LRT tunnel is done.

In other words, if this gets adopted reasonably quickly, a lot of these projects have the chance to be reasonably started before the 2013 mayoral election, where they run the risk of being thrown out again.
 
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