saveoursubways (SOS)

[Second_in_pie]

Sheppard West to Downsview is also densifying a lot. I can practically see the avenue creeping along from Downsview.

 

[hbl33]

I think that is too much subway to be an affordable alternative to Transit City. It looks to much like a fantasy proposal.

I say only the following should be proposed:

1. Sheppard to Scarborough City Centre
2. Sheppard to Downsview
3. Bloor-Danforth to East Mall
4. Bloor-Danforth to Scarborough City Centre
5. Eglinton West in its entirety
6. Pape from Union to Danforth

The rest are not necessary at this time, if ever.

I don't agree with the idea of a subway to Square One, and not only because I think it is a bad idea. The main problem is that Mississauga would not support such an extension, and Toronto would not be obligated to fund it, so it is not Toronto's problem and therefore it is beyond the scope of SOS.

There will already be very strong support from both GO and MT for an extension to East Mall. The East Mall station will shorten a huge number of GO and MT bus routes (not to mentional some TTC routes also). It is the best location possible for a regional terminal (the new terminal at Kipling is a huge mistake).

The Eglinton West subway would have a lot of support from Mississauga and GO too, because, with the proper alignment (i.e, with a station at Renforth), it would connect directly to GO and MT's BRT services. Regionally, Eglinton East is far less important, so that can be skipped. I don't think there is any need for three east-west lines east of Yonge, yet.

The DRL is only needed east of Union. And alone that is already enough to make proposal less ignorant of downtown transit than Transit City.

Sheppard to Downsview is what's never necessary, I agree with you on that, apart from the ability to service trains out of Wilson Yard it has no ridership basis.

As for Mississuaga, yes scrap that extension too. If the subway's extended to Dixie GO via Sherway there is nothing more that's needed there. I'd sooner recommend a branch of the Hurontario LRT routed parallel the GO tracks to offer direct service beween CCTT and the subway. Eglinton subway's a much more direct path to Square One via the Transitway (10-15 mins max).

However a full DRL is needed, if for no other reason, to offer the possibility of interlining to the airport.

Agreed with both doady and Fresh Start, except a branch of Hurontario LRT to reach the East Mall? Isn't that what Dundas LRT is proposed for? Dundas stretches from Hurontario to Kipling, although trip to proposed East Mall and Cooksville GO would be feasible for most.

I always thought Sheppard was ideal as LRT, but not subway. But a subway from Downsview to STC is now the only choice now that development and congestion takes place along the Ave.

Speaking of DRL, what was the original proposal? DRL = downtown relief + Jane + Don Mills?

And is the proposed Queen Subway is to be a part of DRL or completely different subway line?

 

[Second_in_pie]

Agreed with both doady and Fresh Start, except a branch of Hurontario LRT to reach the East Mall? Isn't that what Dundas LRT is proposed for? Dundas stretches from Hurontario to Kipling, although trip to proposed East Mall and Cooksville GO would be feasible for most.

Yes, the Dundas LRT is planned to connect Hurontario and MCC with Kipling Station.

I think that the B-D extension is important. Going to Sherway, then making it's way back up to Dundas to MCC. However, I think that the Milton Line should get real Regional Rail service too. Perhaps rerouting the Milton Line into one tunnel with the B-D might make some sense, which would connect at Dixie, then head up to MCC underground. That's what I'd imagine at least, with the B-D diverting down to Sherway before connecting back at Dixie.

I always thought Sheppard was ideal as LRT, but not subway. But a subway from Downsview to STC is now the only choice now that development and congestion takes place along the Ave.

I don't agree, but Sheppard West certainly has more going for it than Sheppard East now. I think that East should be built earlier and should be higher priority, but the LRT certainly complicates things.

Speaking of DRL, what was the original proposal? DRL = downtown relief + Jane + Don Mills?

And is the proposed Queen Subway is to be a part of DRL or completely different subway line?

The original plan only consisted of Pape-Union, with Pape-Eglinton and Union-Dundas West being extensions. I believe that Eglinton-Sheppard was an idea at the time, but nothing really went far. The original plan didn't call for a Queen subway, but instead to take a front/railway alignment. Again, the plan didn't get very far, so the details weren't ironed out, but I think that it was pretty solidly going closer to Front street, and going through Union.
I don't think that an extension to Jane was in any plans at all, and the line was originally supposed to terminate at Dundas West. I think now, the Georgetown line could easily take over that western relief job, and would be better than a subway, especially since subway would mean duplicating service.

 

[Dan416]

I think that since the Metrolinx BCA examined the Sheppard West extension, we should put it into our plan as well. Expand Sheppard in both directions, Extend Danforth to STC, and the DRL.

I think we should just leave Eglinton out of the plans for now. At least the way Eglinton is planned now, it's one line and the possibility to convert it to subway when necessary is there.

 

[gweed123]

I don't agree with the idea of a subway to Square One, and not only because I think it is a bad idea. The main problem is that Mississauga would not support such an extension, and Toronto would not be obligated to fund it, so it is not Toronto's problem and therefore it is beyond the scope of SOS.

There will already be very strong support from both GO and MT for an extension to East Mall. The East Mall station will shorten a huge number of GO and MT bus routes (not to mentional some TTC routes also). It is the best location possible for a regional terminal (the new terminal at Kipling is a huge mistake).

Why don't you think Mississauga will fund it? And why would that leave Toronto with the bill?

And why stop it at the East Mall when you can extend it to Sherway for very little more?

And just a note, this is the entire SOS plan, there was a map posted earlier showing the phasing of the plan. It was also discussed earlier.

 

[hbl33]

Why don't you think Mississauga will fund it? And why would that leave Toronto with the bill?

And why stop it at the East Mall when you can extend it to Sherway for very little more?

And just a note, this is the entire SOS plan, there was a map posted earlier showing the phasing of the plan. It was also discussed earlier.

I think he is bit on the technical side. Granted, I would love to see subway being reached all the way to SQ1, as it would allow me to forego GO and MT in favour of TTC. But face it; it is too far from being realistic.

CP rail reconstruction, cut and cover (i wonder tunnel boring is a great alternative in Sauga), noise and traffic disruptions for the sake of TTC extension would bring all of the city down into rubbles!

That is why Dundas LRT is being proposed along the way in Mississauga. In addition, GO's train arrival from Union to Cooksville is much faster than TTC's reach from Bloor/Yonge to Cooksville, whether built or unbuilt.

However, extending to Sherway Gardens instead of SQ1 may be worthy try, considering that Sauga Transit's hub should move to Sherway rather than being crowded in Islington Subway station. In that case, both Sauga and T.O. should bill it proportionally. TTC would receive some from Sauga for operating a terminal in the proposed station.

 

[doady]

Why don't you think Mississauga will fund it? And why would that leave Toronto with the bill?

I was just saying neither Toronto or Mississauga would want such an extension. Apparently, the City of Mississauga doesn't even want the Dundas LRT and are pushing for BRT instead (which I think is a mistake), so I can't imagine them wanting a Dundas subway.

And why stop it at the East Mall when you can extend it to Sherway for very little more?

Because Sherway is not a major transit destination, and a subway there would provide any benefit at all to Mississauga Transit. And plus, East Mall station would be within Etobicoke Centre, and Sherway would not.

However, extending to Sherway Gardens instead of SQ1 may be worthy try, considering that Sauga Transit's hub should move to Sherway rather than being crowded in Islington Subway station.

A lot of people believe this, but I'm not sure why. A quick glance at the map and it is clear that rerouting the MT buses into Sherway Gardens would result in longer bus rides than either East Mall, Kipling or Islington for all routes. And of course, the subway rides would be longer as well...

Such a rerouting would add at least 5 minutes to everyone's trip compared to the current service to Islington, and at least 10 minutes compared to an East Mall terminal.

 

[hbl33]

Because Sherway is not a major transit destination, and a subway there would provide any benefit at all to Mississauga Transit. And plus, East Mall station would be within Etobicoke Centre, and Sherway would not.

A lot of people believe this, but I'm not sure why. A quick glance at the map and it is clear that rerouting the MT buses into Sherway Gardens would result in longer bus rides than either East Mall, Kipling or Islington for all routes. And of course, the subway rides would be longer as well...

Such a rerouting would add at least 5 minutes to everyone's trip compared to the current service to Islington, and at least 10 minutes compared to an East Mall terminal.

That leaves either East Mall or Kipling. If Sherway is left out, what will it be good for? Every major mall in T.O. has a terminal, but with Sherway without a terminal...

Anyways I see no objection in having a terminus at East Mall due to closer access from 427. Kipling is better choice though, it would be a relief in sight to replace the vast parking spots with a transit terminal.

 

[Fresh Start]

I was just saying neither Toronto or Mississauga would want such an extension. Apparently, the City of Mississauga doesn't even want the Dundas LRT and are pushing for BRT instead (which I think is a mistake), so I can't imagine them wanting a Dundas subway.

Again, I agree. But for the sake of not coming off as anti-905, we could terminate the subway at Dixie-Dundas via a bell curve through WestMall/Queensway. It's a natural end-point (major intersection, malls, residences, and the GO stn). Where they expect the money to come from to tunnel beneath Cooksville and the MCC I have no idea. At least up to this point the right-of-way can be cheaply at- or above grade (adjacent brownstones, light industries, the train tracks and a hydro corridor). If met by a wye of the Hurontario LRT then all of Mississauga's problems are solved; with everyone else, especially Malton, feeding into the Eglinton Line.

Because Sherway is not a major transit destination, and a subway there would provide any benefit at all to Mississauga Transit. And plus, East Mall station would be within Etobicoke Centre, and Sherway would not.

A lot of people believe this, but I'm not sure why. A quick glance at the map and it is clear that rerouting the MT buses into Sherway Gardens would result in longer bus rides than either East Mall, Kipling or Islington for all routes. And of course, the subway rides would be longer as well...

Such a rerouting would add at least 5 minutes to everyone's trip compared to the current service to Islington, and at least 10 minutes compared to an East Mall terminal.

They're not mutually exclusive, you know. Any extension to Sherway would include a stop at the East Mall. And with the Mississuaga Transit hub building built at Kipling Stn, I doubt that many buses would be routed off to Sherway, except perhaps highway express routes like the 82, 89 and 11 whom would benefit from the reduced time getting into the subway (since Sherway Gdns is directly off the 427).

 

[hbl33]

Again, I agree. But for the sake of not coming off as anti-905, we could terminate the subway at Dixie-Dundas via a bell curve through WestMall/Queensway. It's a natural end-point (major intersection, malls, residences, and the GO stn). Where they expect the money to come from to tunnel beneath Cooksville and the MCC I have no idea. At least up to this point the right-of-way can be cheaply at- or above grade (adjacent brownstones, light industries, the train tracks and a hydro corridor). If met by a wye of the Hurontario LRT then all of Mississauga's problems are solved; with everyone else, especially Malton, feeding into the Eglinton Line.



They're not mutually exclusive, you know. Any extension to Sherway would include a stop at the East Mall. And with the Mississuaga Transit hub building built at Kipling Stn, I doubt that many buses would be routed off to Sherway, except perhaps highway express routes like the 82, 89 and 11 whom would benefit from the reduced time getting into the subway (since Sherway Gdns is directly off the 427).

Don't forget route 4, which makes stops to Sherway 6 days a week; with that, I think service can increase and become an daily bus route in the future. As for now though, not much passenger ridership takes place yet.

 

[doady]

They're not mutually exclusive, you know. Any extension to Sherway would include a stop at the East Mall. And with the Mississuaga Transit hub building built at Kipling Stn, I doubt that many buses would be routed off to Sherway, except perhaps highway express routes like the 82, 89 and 11 whom would benefit from the reduced time getting into the subway (since Sherway Gdns is directly off the 427).

Not a single bus route would rerouted to Sherway because there is not a single bus route that would benefit from being rerouted to Sherway. Even for the 11, 82, 89 that you mention, such a rerouting would result in the 10 minute longer trip overall compared to a routing into an East Mall terminal. Even compared to Islington, a rerouting into Sherway would result in a longer bus/subway ride by about 5 minutes.

 

[gweed123]

Not a single bus route would rerouted to Sherway because there is not a single bus route that would benefit from being rerouted to Sherway. Even for the 11, 82, 89 that you mention, such a rerouting would result in the 10 minute longer trip overall compared to a routing into an East Mall terminal. Even compared to Islington, a rerouting into Sherway would result in a longer bus/subway ride by about 5 minutes.

But it would mean a significantly shorter trip for those in South Etobicoke to reach to B-D subway. The trip to Kipling station from Lakeshore is easily 20+ minutes. The extension to Sherway isn't just for Mississauga...

 

[hbl33]

But it would mean a significantly shorter trip for those in South Etobicoke to reach to B-D subway. The trip to Kipling station from Lakeshore is easily 20+ minutes. The extension to Sherway isn't just for Mississauga...

Any TTC bus routes that terminate @ Sherway?
As for MT, only route 4 terminates at the Gardens and makes back trip to Huron Heights/Westdale Mall...

 

[gweed123]

Any TTC bus routes that terminate @ Sherway?
As for MT, only route 4 terminates at the Gardens and makes back trip to Huron Heights/Westdale Mall...

3 bus routes currently do. But that is sort of irrelevant, because most of the TTC bus routes are geared to subway access. Put a subway there, more routes would go there.

In the SOS plan the Mississauga extension is listed in the 25 year timeframe anyways, so it's by no means a priority expansion. The priorities are: DRL East, Eglinton Central and West, Sheppard East, Bloor-Danforth East.

 

[gweed123]

I posted this in the group forum but I'll post it here too. These are the breakdowns for distances of the proposed subway lines. I have broken some of the lines up into different sub-sections because a significant change in construction techniques could occur (ex: tunnelled to trenched). These distances are approximate, but follow the proposed routes of the lines. Station costs will also need to be added in later.

Eglinton Central:
Don Mills to east of Laird: 1.4 km
East of Laird to Jane: 12.1 km

Eglinton West:
Jane to Royal York: 2.3 km
Royal York to Martin Grove (Richview corridor): 3.1 km
Martin Grove to Pearson 3: 4.6 km

Sheppard:
Don Mills to STC: 7.4 km
Yonge to Downsview: 4.1 km

Bloor-Danforth:
Kennedy to STC: 6 km
Kipling to Sherway: 3.3 km (majority at-grade)
Sherway to Square One: 8 km

DRL:
Eglinton (Science Centre) to Spadina: 11.7 km
Spadina to Bloor: 5.3 km
Bloor to Eglinton: 4.5 km

Eglinton East:
Kingston to Kennedy: 4.4 km
Kennedy to Don Mills: 6.3 km

All of these I had originally posted in an pdf file, but I decided to re-type them in here. Crunch away. Look at Google Earth to see which sections can be done as what (tunneled, cut-and-covered, trenched, etc).