Sammy Yatim Shooting

[nfitz]

One trigger happy cop went to far, it's pretty black and white.

True, but I'd think whoever thought they should be tasering someone who'd just been shot so many times should also be facing some discipline and retraining.

 

[TrickyRicky]

js97, if this was an isolated incident maybe. My take on it is the complete opposite. I'm not really interested in the "trigger happy cop". I'm interested in police procedure and what is wrong with their protocols for use of force.

The police are now using this as an excuse to expand the use of tasers and divert funding to the purchase of taser equipment, so the police themselves disagree with the assessment that this is an isolated incident. If they are making this argument they are also admitting that this is a greater police procedure and protocol issue.

I have nothing against tasers. Greater use of tasers may or may not be better; however, I still don't see this as the issue. What I see is some kind of philosophical or cultural problem with how the use of force is applied in the field. The type of weapon used still isn't getting at the heart of the problem.

 

[Voltz]

The police are now using this as an excuse to expand the use of tasers and divert funding to the purchase of taser equipment, so the police themselves disagree with the assessment that this is an isolated incident. If they are making this argument they are also admitting that this is a greater police procedure and protocol issue.

No their not, the government made the decision to allow all police to have tasers, not the police services and they said the decision had been made several weeks ago. And such a decision would have been inevitable anyway since Ontario is pretty much the last jurisdiction in north america to make this move.

 

[gabe]

True, but I'd think whoever thought they should be tasering someone who'd just been shot so many times should also be facing some discipline and retraining.

The officer who tasered a Toronto teenager after he was shot multiple times on a streetcar is under investigation and could face charges.

I agree. After 9 shots the taser wasn't needed. The type of bullets police use expand when they hit a target. The bullets would have left gaping wounds inside Sammy's body. It wouldn't take more than two or three bullets to kill him at that range.

 

[Blovertis]

So the Wynne government is authorizing use of tasers for all police. With "liberals" like these, who needs conservatives?

The police always want more weapons and their civilian overseers are always happy to give them. The result will be more innocent lives lost.

And do I need to add that there was a taser on site the night Sammy Yatim was killed? It was used to finish him off!

 

[Marko]

And do I need to add that there was a taser on site the night Sammy Yatim was killed? It was used to finish him off!

The taser wasn't actually there when the shooting occurred, as previously only supervisors are authorized to use them. The supervisor arrived just as the shooting concluded and it's possible that he had no idea how many shots were fired prior to discharging the taser. It's extremely rare for an officer to fire so many shots, so he may have assumed that 1-3 shots were fired and thus the taser may have been a protocol follow up. Can't say for sure.

Had the situation not been handled so quickly, the taser would have arrived in time to make a different decision than Forcillo ultimately made. It's quite possible the more senior and experienced supervisor would have taken the lead in terms of contact with Sammy and Forcillo would then have been the backup.

 

[BurlOak]

It seems this annouement from the province means.

1. The province says the police were severly lacking a tool less severe than a gun and the options for this officer fell between hand combat and gun.

2. The reason Sammy is dead is due to the slow decision making of the province by not allowing an intermediate means for police to solve a situation like this.

 

[nfitz]

2. The reason Sammy is dead is due to the slow decision making of the province by not allowing an intermediate means for police to solve a situation like this.

If it had been necessary for the police to shoot, then that might be the case. There are questions whether the use of force was necessary at that moment, or if they could simply have waited a couple more minutes.

 

[js97]

If i could be Judge and Jury based on the limited facts and basic profile of Constable Forcillo (which is only a 3rd year cop):

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/portrait-of-an-officer/article13993250/

Forcillo should pay some sort of retribution (financial) and never be able to wield a gun or be a cop (he can work as a ticket agent).

No point ruining 3 more lives (the wife and 2 children). As it stands, Forcillo is a more productive member of society than Yatim. He should also have to burden (as I'm sure he will) his mistake for the rest of his life - e.g. pay monthly financial settlements to the Yatim family.

That being said - the national post had an article outlining how the Crown had not included the manslaughter charge - so it will be all or nothing situation for Forcillo. High risk, but high reward (for both sides).

And yes, this tazer thing will be the most retarded decision the Province will have ever made. Now they have a tool that they can abuse with much less consequences. I'm generally a supporter of the TPS as I've worked with many and have known many good cops, but the bad ones will be the first ones abusing this new fancy toy.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

If it had been necessary for the police to shoot, then that might be the case. There are questions whether the use of force was necessary at that moment, or if they could simply have waited a couple more minutes.

This, I think, is the crux of the whole situation. How do you apprehend a suspect who had already threatened the public with a knife, was still wielding said knife, and was in a confined area with only two ways in or out. A suspect who was obviously not co-operative and so could conceivably be antagonistic to any officer attempting to board the streetcar and apprehend him.

At that point a quick decision must be made, wait it out and hope the suspect settles down, at the risk of creating an even greater scene and drawing even more public bystanders, or, attempt to resolve the situation as soon as possible. Obviously Officer Forcillo made the second, unfortunate, choice.

Would rubber bullets be an option as well?

 

[cassius]

Would rubber bullets be an option as well?

I don't know. I wouldn't want to bring rubber bullets to a gun fight. While this particular situation may have allowed time for an officer to switch to something with rubber bullets, that's not always the case.

I'd also be curious to see the stats on just how many times in an average year police officers (or those they protect) are truly in a life-or-death situation.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I think a lot of it will have to do with Forcillo's state of mind and interpretation of what was going on. I think it is his testimony that may bury him.

The accused is not obligated to speak in his own defense. We may never hear his side of the story beyond what the evidence shows.

 

[freshcutgrass]

The accused is not obligated to speak in his own defense. We may never hear his side of the story beyond what the evidence shows

.

I was speaking about the investigation, which will matter a lot on the on site officers interpretation of the situation as it was happening....not any future trial (which may not even happen).

All these opinions of the You Tube Warriors as to what is and isn't in these situations is completely and absolutely irrelevant. None of these "facts" or opinions of anonymous internet chat forum people as to what should and shouldn't be done in these situations are based on zero knowledge.

The province says the police were severly lacking a tool less severe than a gun and the options for this officer fell between hand combat and gun.

Since when is a less than deadly force ever an option when dealing with an aggressive suspect with a deadly weapon? Yea...it never is, because police are not required to respond to deadly force with less than deadly force....and I would never blame them. Rubber bullets and tasers are an option for dealing with unarmed people. Even a gun won't necessarily keep you from being killed or injured against a knife wielding suspect.

Too many people here think that the police were obligated to risk their lives and the public's by making the priority Sammy's safety. That just isn't the case. Sammy signed his own death warrant by his specific actions during the altercation. And that may very well have been his goal...go out in a blaze of glory...death by cop.

 

[nfitz]

Too many people here think that the police were obligated to risk their lives and the public's by making the priority Sammy's safety.

Surely 1 dead cop is better than 10 civilians shot by cops unnecessarily!

 

[js97]

.

Too many people here think that the police were obligated to risk their lives and the public's by making the priority Sammy's safety. That just isn't the case. Sammy signed his own death warrant by his specific actions during the altercation. And that may very well have been his goal...go out in a blaze of glory...death by cop.

I feel like there is an overarching assumption (at least on my part) that cops are obligated to risk their lives - it comes with the territory. And as an elective career choice, I would assume it's part of the job - hence the 'hazard pay' incorporated in their salaries.