Sammy Yatim Shooting

[freshcutgrass]

As soon as I heard they were charging him with 2nd degree murder I rolled my eyes. Second degree murder requires intent and that will be hard to prove.

No one is going to dispute the use of lethal force, which implies intent. The question will be whether it was warranted or not. If it is found that it was, then it is justifiable homicide...not murder.

And proving that it wasn't is going to be the difficult part I would imagine.

The use of lethal force requires 3 specific elements...weapon, intent and a delivery system. All of which were present.

There was no de-escalation on the part of the officers attempted. Was it possible at the time? If it was, is it simply an "option", or was not attempting it somehow a "criminal act"? Not very likely. Was it gross "criminal" negligence on the part of the officers? Who knows...it would depend on what training and protocols dictate at the moment.

To be found guilty of murder2, you have to cause the death of someone by means of a criminal act, or by criminal negligence.

In other words, that is going to be difficult and this may look good for the press and public consumption but it may be the back door to getting him off the hook.

Are you suggesting the SIU is trying to actually get him off? What is the basis of this theory?

Manslaughter in the first degree would basically be guaranteed as a guilty verdict. I bet the defense is ecstatic that he was charged with murder as they will have a far easier time defending him against that than they would against manslaughter.

My understanding is that a jury would have the alternative to find him guilty of manslaughter if they found him not guilty of murder2.

 

[Roy G Biv]

My understanding is that a jury would have the alternative to find him guilty of manslaughter if they found him not guilty of murder2.

Yes, but this is unlikely, because the jurers would have to connect the dots by themselves. The prosecution won't help them along, because they'll be busy arguing murder2. This is why George Zimmmerman got off.

 

[nfitz]

All you have is a Youtube video and an anti-cop hatred which you wear on your sleeve.

What's with the baseless accusations? I don't have an anti-cop hatred. I have an issue with corrupt or bad cops. I have no problem with good cops. Most cops are good.

Shouldn't everyone have an issue with corrupt cops?

The bottom line here, is that you were completely wrong on this. You didn't just say you thought it was a clean shoot. You ridiculed those who expressed doubt. The implication here is that you prefer some kind of police state where no one questions authority, and should let alone until something like the SUI says otherwise.

And that's very disturbing.

 

[TOperson]

Just saw this video:

http://gawker.com/how-one-woman-talked-the-would-be-georgia-school-shoote-1178217739

I really can't see why the Toronto police couldn't have at least TRIED this sort of thing with Yatim. The Georgia situation was much more volatile and this woman has zero training (an amazingly level head though) and she saved the day. Shouldn't ALL cops have some idea how to do this?

 

[freshcutgrass]

What's with the baseless accusations?

Oh who do you think you're kidding....you haven't had this much fun since that 100 page long G20 thread.

You didn't just say you thought it was a clean shoot. You ridiculed those who expressed doubt.

Uh...I challenged specific claims made regarding police protocols, legal terms, lack of evidence, etc. I don't recall anyone proving me wrong on those points (probably because they were indisputable). So how I can be "completely wrong" is baffling. Wrong about which points?

And to be clear, I do not consider it a routine "clean" shoot at all. I'm willing to bet everything up and including the first 3 shots technically fall within the boundaries of police discretion. Some form of de-escolation might have been a nice alternative, but I don't think it is a requirement, and the actions of the suspect dictates what will happen.

The 6 second delay may be where things get iffy. If SUI thinks the last 6 shots constitute an entirely separate use of lethal force, perhaps they think it may not meet the requirements for the use of lethal force. I am quite interested to know exactly what their case is based on.

I don't know what to make of the fact that there weren't any charges laid regarding the tasering (for all we know that's what killed him)

Shouldn't everyone have an issue with corrupt cops?

Sure...only we should make sure they are corrupt first. I know you think you are, but the fact is you are not in a position to know one way or the other.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Man is shot in head and continues to play soccer.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/06/goalie-blocks-shot-9-mm-and-keeps-playing/

Relevant due to the discussion over whether or not Sammy was incapacitated following the initial 3 shots.

I think it is going to be very difficult to prove a chain of events where the second (not the first three) round of bullets were a: the bullets that mortally wounded Sammy b: if they were not and the first three shots were the mortal wounds. Than can he be charged for murder when Sammy would have been basically dead following the first volley of bullets.

If the first three bullets killed him than it's use of force against an armed suspect. If it is the last 6 than prosecution must prove that Sammy was down, incapacitated, and no longer a threat. If Sammy attempts to get up following the first three bullets than he is still a threat is he not?

 

[nfitz]

Oh who do you think you're kidding....you haven't had this much fun since that 100 page long G20 thread.

Fun? You think this our police force murdering instead of protecting our citizens fun? Your a sadist.

So how I can be "completely wrong" is baffling. Wrong about which points?

Wrong about the SIU not charging someone. Wrong to harass people questioning whether there should be considerations of murder charges.

You never tackled this as a simple debate. You were antagonist, rude, and sadistic long before I joined the discussion. It's only now that a Toronto police officer has actually been charged with murder - in record time as far as I know, that your starting to sound rational in the discussion.

It's amazing how fast the SIU has charged Forcillo. Didn't the last time take over a year, instead of less than a month? More indication that the police should be required to have video cameras attached to them at all times. That would make everything much more efficient - mostly for prosecuting offenders, but also in unfortunate cases like this.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Fun? You think this our police force murdering instead of protecting our citizens fun? Your a sadist.

Yea I'm a sadist alright....for listening to you spout the same police brutality talking points over and over again. You're like sh*t on blanket.

You never tackled this as a simple debate. You were antagonist, rude, and sadistic long before I joined the discussion.

Funny how I stick to the facts of the case (probably because I'm unbiased about the police), while you wallow in insults, personal attacks and straw man arguments while repeating the same hyperbolic talking points.

Wrong about the SIU not charging someone.

Got me there. But as I said, being charged doesn't make you guilty.

Wrong to harass people questioning whether there should be considerations of murder charges.

Oh...now I'm "harassing" people???? Really????? Maybe you should call the cops...that is a crime after all. Perhaps it's attempted murder?

God...you're such a drama queen.

 

[TOperson]

Yea I'm a sadist alright....for listening to you spout the same police brutality talking points over and over again. You're like sh*t on blanket.




Funny how I stick to the facts of the case (probably because I'm unbiased about the police), while you wallow in insults, personal attacks and straw man arguments while repeating the same hyperbolic talking points.




Got me there. But as I said, being charged doesn't make you guilty.




Oh...now I'm "harassing" people???? Really????? Maybe you should call the cops...that is a crime after all. Perhaps it's attempted murder?

God...you're such a drama queen.

freshcut, the name-calling and insults are over the line. Calm down and rein it in.

 

[freshcutgrass]

freshcut, the name-calling and insults are over the line. Calm down and rein it in.

Except I am the one that has had to endure the personal attacks and insults regarding my views on the subject.
So please don't make matters worse by wading into the banter. Give an opinion on the thread subject.

 

[freshcutgrass]

If it is the last 6 than prosecution must prove that Sammy was down, incapacitated, and no longer a threat.

According to the video, even after all shots are fired, officers are still ordering him to drop the knife. The tasering officer (the supervisor I assume as they are the ones that carry the tasers), approaches with caution and as he's being tasered, we hear drop the knife (not sure who's saying it).

If the supervising officer feels it is necessary to taser Sammy to apprehend him, then it's reasonable to assume the supervising officer felt that Sammy was still a threat.

The supervising officer has not been charged.

 

[nfitz]

Funny how I stick to the facts of the case (probably because I'm unbiased about the police), while you wallow in insults, personal attacks ...

That seems rather ironic given that for days you did little but insult people and personally attack them. Don't project your poor behaviour on other people.

God...you're such a drama queen.

There you go again ... insults and personal attacks. No one has has subjected you to this kind of name calling and bullying. Yet you persist on doing it to others that disagree with you.

 

[nfitz]

The supervising officer has not been charged.

Yet. Who tasered him?

 

[Marko]

Man is shot in head and continues to play soccer.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/06/goalie-blocks-shot-9-mm-and-keeps-playing/

Relevant due to the discussion over whether or not Sammy was incapacitated following the initial 3 shots.

I think it is going to be very difficult to prove a chain of events where the second (not the first three) round of bullets were a: the bullets that mortally wounded Sammy b: if they were not and the first three shots were the mortal wounds. Than can he be charged for murder when Sammy would have been basically dead following the first volley of bullets.

If the first three bullets killed him than it's use of force against an armed suspect. If it is the last 6 than prosecution must prove that Sammy was down, incapacitated, and no longer a threat. If Sammy attempts to get up following the first three bullets than he is still a threat is he not?

I think the autopsy and forensic reports will be as important as any video evidence. We know 9 shots were fired, but we don't know how many of those 9 actually hit the suspect, or where they hit him. Handguns aren't very accurate from the distance that Forcillo was shooting from and I would be surprised if more than 2 of the shots actually landed in a lethal way. A couple more may have hit extremities and I'll bet several were misses entirely.

I do think Forcillo lost his cool, but if only one of the first shots landed and say, hit him in the opposite shoulder (leaving the knife in his good arm), then do we still think that Sammy has been incapacitated and no longer poses a threat? That's the point at which the taser could/should have been used, but in the heat of the moment Forcillo made the decision that in the absence of a taser, he was going to fire instead. The question then, is would one shot have done the job or were several shots justified?

I wonder if all that info will be made public, though, or if some sort of publication ban will be put in place?

 

[nfitz]

Man is shot in head and continues to play soccer.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/06/goalie-blocks-shot-9-mm-and-keeps-playing/

Relevant due to the discussion over whether or not Sammy was incapacitated following the initial 3 shots.

I'm not sure it's relevant. The guy in question was shot with a single 9 mm bullet. What do the police use - I'm no weaponry expert, but my gut feel is this would be very unlikely with what the police use.

More to the point though ... the soccer player kept standing. Yatim was down after 3 bullets.