Sammy Yatim Shooting

[AlvinofDiaspar]

... dead or injured police officer to me implies significant danger to me and other members of the public. That is why killing of a police officer holds a greater penalty that killing of a civillian. Someone willing to eliminate a defender of the peace is liable to do anything and so is a grave danger to the public..

That's odd, because a) a dead or injured police officer implies nothing other than the willingness to use deadly force on the part of the assailant regardless of whom they are and b) it presupposes the worth of an individual (and not the crime itself) as the validator of punishment. So if you want to make the case for a different level of sentencing, it should be directed at the willingness to use deadly force indiscriminately, and not because of the victim is a police officer - which suggests preferential treatment of that one class of victims because of their occupational position.

Besides, what about the flip side - i.e. the defender of the peace using the authority granted by one's position to commit crimes, engage in perjury and the like - why isn't there increased penalties for that - when knowledge of the law and intent is clear?

AoD

 

[doady]

Our police culture is essentially American, would be my guess.

Canada is part of America, so that would make sense.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Canada is part of America, so that would make sense.

So is Peru. It would help to be a little more specific.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Our police culture is essentially American, would be my guess.

Speaking of America, the Dallas police dept. recently fired an officer and charges are pending for unnecessarily discharging his weapon in a similar incident;

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/dall...entally-ill-man-in-the-abdomen-229125411.html
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/v...e-fired-in-shooting-mentally-ill-man.cnn.html

 

[DtTO]

The real problem that needs to be resolved has more to do with our increasing refugee count and less with our police system. We can all argue over whether or not the officer should've shot the kid, but nobody can deny that this kid was a criminal, willing to put innocent people in harm's way. In my opinion, we need to get our immigration levels up to the promised 1% (~350k/year), especially through skilled immigration and investment, and decrease our refugee intake by at least 50%. Canada, as a country, isn't even responsible for the displacement of most refugees, so why should we have to deal with the social burden of hosting them, especially when doing so gives them priority over people who are willing to put a lot of effort into getting here (i.e. immigrants)? Refugees and illegal immigrants seriously undermine our immigration system, and the law abiding, hard workers it's bringing into this country.

 

[vegeta_skyline]

*Update*
Disgraced officer James Forcillo will indeed be facing 2nd degree murder charges sometime in 2015. Justice Richard LeDressay has ruled that there is more than enough evidence to proceed to a trial;

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rder-in-death-of-sammy-yatim/article19203567/
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...-murder-in-streetcar-shooting-of-sammy-yatim/
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/06/17/toronto-cop-committed-to-stand-trial-in-ttc-shooting

 

[Admiral Beez]

Not fun to watch, but informative http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...de-streetcar-at-sammy-yatim-murder-trial.html

I sometimes think we need to remove the police from dealing with insane folks, and instead we have a separate rapid response unit as part of Toronto ambulance services.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Not fun to watch, but informative http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...de-streetcar-at-sammy-yatim-murder-trial.html

I sometimes think we need to remove the police from dealing with insane folks, and instead we have a separate rapid response unit as part of Toronto ambulance services.

That's part of their job - and asking paramedics to deal with an individual with a weapon is not necessarily reasonable. At issue is why did this officer escalate when his colleagues didn't.

AoD

 

[James]

Watching the events unfold from inside the street car really gives you a sense of what the other passengers must've felt as it all went down. Pretty frightening, especially that initial knife slash towards the throat of that female passenger.

 

[kbdid]

Not fun to watch, but informative http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...de-streetcar-at-sammy-yatim-murder-trial.html

I sometimes think we need to remove the police from dealing with insane folks, and instead we have a separate rapid response unit as part of Toronto ambulance services.

Many divisions do have a mental hath crisis team but it has to be requested at the time a 911 call is made.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Watching the events unfold from inside the street car really gives you a sense of what the other passengers must've felt as it all went down. Pretty frightening, especially that initial knife slash towards the throat of that female passenger.

I grew up in Toronto from my arrival in the mid-1970s to the late 1980s and I don't recall so many instances of violence involving insane folks and the police. It seems to be an issue that grew in the 2000s.

 

[BurlOak]

I haven't followed this case much, nor am I an expert on law, but I have a question.

What can Officer Forcillo be found guilty of?

He is charged with 2nd degree murder and attempted murder. I would guess he will not be guilty of the first one, and likely not the second. Can he be found guilty of manslaughter? How about careless use of a firearm?

 

[the lemur]

I grew up in Toronto from my arrival in the mid-1970s to the late 1980s and I don't recall so many instances of violence involving insane folks and the police. It seems to be an issue that grew in the 2000s.

It seems to have increased in the 1990s when many people were released from mental health facilities because their conditions were not deemed to require constant care and/or because it was a way of cutting costs. Sammy Yatim appears to be a kid who could have used some help but didn't get any, for whatever reason.

 

[the lemur]

I haven't followed this case much, nor am I an expert on law, but I have a question.

What can Officer Forcillo be found guilty of?

He is charged with 2nd degree murder and attempted murder. I would guess he will not be guilty of the first one, and likely not the second. Can he be found guilty of manslaughter? How about careless use of a firearm?

Those last two charges would have to be brought against him in a new trial. I'm not a lawyer either, but I would think acquittal on charges of 2nd degree murder or attempted murder would mean either that killing Yatim was a reasonable outcome of Forcillo's self-defence or defence of others as a law enforcement officer, or that the intent to kill him was not demonstrated? Not sure if you can charge someone with attempted murder if the attempt succeeds, however ...

If the defence's position is that he meant only to disarm/subdue him, my question would be why he continued to shoot after the initial three shots, one of which was the one that actually killed him.

On a slightly different note: the guy who was crouching in the seat ... I understand his response in terms of hiding and then escaping (albeit still trying to see what's going on as he left) and of course it's easier to say what one would have done in that situation, but Yatim didn't seem to notice him. I wonder what a well-aimed kick to the back of Yatim's knees might have done.

 

[Admiral Beez]

On a slightly different note: the guy who was crouching in the seat ... I understand his response in terms of hiding and then escaping (albeit still trying to see what's going on as he left) and of course it's easier to say what one would have done in that situation, but Yatim didn't seem to notice him. I wonder what a well-aimed kick to the back of Yatim's knees might have done.

My thinking was where are those gun toting gangstas when they'd been useful. Illegal conceal carry saves the day?