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Rob Ford's Toronto

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Some interesting comments from a Sarah Rimmington, lawyer and policy analyst, on Facebook. More confirmation of what we already know:

It's(the crack video) the talk of the town amongst the criminal defense bar and cops. It'll probably come out at some point - just depends on which Project Traveller cases settle and which go to trial. I also heard that various people on the Project Traveller wiretaps discussed the video. Rob Ford is probably just waiting it out, keeping his head down, hoping it comes out later (i.e. after the next election) rather than sooner, since court cases often drag on. Of course, he could still be elected. Some people will still invariably be okay with having an addict with a short fuse for a mayor. Or they'll continue to think it's a "libtard" conspiracy despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary. There are FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) cases to be dealt with vis a vis Project Traveller but they are going to fight over how much of the documents should be redacted - no guarantee any of the "good" stuff will come out. But there is a reason all the news outlets brought the FOIAs - they know that there is good stuff vis a vis Rob Ford in there and they know it's the kind of info they can publish. What they can't publish? The stuff the Globe couldn't publish in the Ford family crime saga story would curl your toes. I can't share on here b/c my sources would freak out, but let's just say it's way more scandalous than the fact Doug Ford dealt hashish in the 80s. I mean who really gives a shit about that?
 
Any theories about why Ford even wants to be mayor? I really can't understand why any person with his history would want to be in his position. I mean, what does he get out of this job at all? Does he genuinely care about Toronto or are the true motives hidden? Rob could have stepped out of the spotlight, worked at Deco and be a very rich man. It just doesn't make much sense to me.
 
Any theories about why Ford even wants to be mayor? I really can't understand why any person with his history would want to be in his position. I mean, what does he get out of this job at all? Does he genuinely care about Toronto or are the true motives hidden? Rob could have stepped out of the spotlight, worked at Deco and be a very rich man. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

Bragging rights
 
Mayor Rob Ford makes catch of the day - Mayor Hazel McCallion!


1297455307371_ORIGINAL.jpg


(We need a caption contest for this one)

More pictures and story from the Toronto SUN http://www.torontosun.com/2013/08/15/mayor-rob-ford-makes-catch-of-the-day--mayor-hazel-mccallion
 
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Some interesting comments from a Sarah Rimmington, lawyer and policy analyst, on Facebook. More confirmation of what we already know:

It's(the crack video) the talk of the town amongst the criminal defense bar and cops. It'll probably come out at some point - just depends on which Project Traveller cases settle and which go to trial. I also heard that various people on the Project Traveller wiretaps discussed the video. Rob Ford is probably just waiting it out, keeping his head down, hoping it comes out later (i.e. after the next election) rather than sooner, since court cases often drag on. Of course, he could still be elected. Some people will still invariably be okay with having an addict with a short fuse for a mayor. Or they'll continue to think it's a "libtard" conspiracy despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary. There are FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) cases to be dealt with vis a vis Project Traveller but they are going to fight over how much of the documents should be redacted - no guarantee any of the "good" stuff will come out. But there is a reason all the news outlets brought the FOIAs - they know that there is good stuff vis a vis Rob Ford in there and they know it's the kind of info they can publish. What they can't publish? The stuff the Globe couldn't publish in the Ford family crime saga story would curl your toes. I can't share on here b/c my sources would freak out, but let's just say it's way more scandalous than the fact Doug Ford dealt hashish in the 80s. I mean who really gives a shit about that?

i don't understand what the crack video would have to do with the project traveller cases. isn't it a side element? something that got caught up in the raids. if it's evidence, it's evidence of what?

and what sorts of things can't the media publish? if they do have info they can't publish, aren't there other ways to get that info out?

all this teasing is driving me nuts!
 
Mayor Rob Ford makes catch of the day - Mayor Hazel McCallion!


More pictures and story from the Toronto SUN http://www.torontosun.com/2013/08/15/mayor-rob-ford-makes-catch-of-the-day--mayor-hazel-mccallion

from that same article...

"But let’s just say Ford was being teased a bit for his self-admitted “sideshows.”

“What’s that you’re drinking?” I teased him before doing my fourth random spot check this year to see what was in the can.

Sorry, no “pops.”

Ginger ale.

Later, when taking a picture, Fantino grabbed a bottle of water and pushed it out of the way — teasing “hide the booze.”

Ford was good-natured about the ribbing.

“It’s vodka in there,” he joked. “Or homemade moonshine.”"


it makes me think of the following, from http://www.tramadolabusehelp.com/harms-of-joking-about-tramadol-addiction/...

There are a number of ways in which joking about addiction can be counterproductive including the following:

Joking can trivialize a problem and make it seem less serious. A 2001 article in Issues in Mental Health Nursing categorized the joking behavior of personnel working on a psychiatric unit. “Discounting” was one of the categories observed. When those around them trivialize the issue of addiction, people suffering from it are less likely to take it seriously. They may also be less likely to seek treatment, if they do not believe they will receive support from others.

Joking can be a way to distract attention from a serious issue and avoid facing it. When the issue of substance abuse arises, a joke can keep the conversation from being productive and from moving the addicted individual toward resolution.

Joking can reinforce identification as a substance user. A 2007 article in The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences (JNCN) notes that humor can strengthen group identity and cohesion. When people who abuse tramadol hear jokes about it from other substance users, it may increase their view of themselves as members of a drug-using group. This can make it more difficult for them to imagine being part of a substance-free social network.

Some forms of humor are thinly veiled criticisms or attacks. A 2007 article in the publication Behavioral Analysis (BA) notes that Sigmund Freud thought some forms of joking to be masked aggression. Recipients of the aggression usually feel the sting but often feel limited in response, because taking offense may invite further criticism of their inability to take a joke. People who feel attacked often become defensive about behavior and less likely to consider change.
 
Any theories about why Ford even wants to be mayor? I really can't understand why any person with his history would want to be in his position. I mean, what does he get out of this job at all? Does he genuinely care about Toronto or are the true motives hidden? Rob could have stepped out of the spotlight, worked at Deco and be a very rich man. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

I think it's probably a case of sibling rivalry over the parents' attention. He seems like he was a pretty unremarkable kid growing up in a house full of - ahem - big personalities. He wasn't terribly good at school or sports, nor did he eventually prove to do well in business. So when his father noticed some of his positive qualities - his ability to connect with people and his genuine desire to help them - that's what his life became, even if those qualities had to be twisted and contorted to conform to his parents' politics, a type of politics I don't think he's ever really understood (in fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't really understand politics at all). Note that parental attention doesn't necessarily have to be positive attention - I can see a brooding little Rob jealously looking on at how much attention his big sister was getting, for example. The fact that none of the Ford bros. seem to have gotten over this sibling rivalry BS (witness the weight loss fiasco, for example) speaks volumes to the level of maturity cultivated by their parents.

He's really just this pathetic little boy who's never really grown up. But - and I'm not entirely certain how metaphorically I'm speaking here - you have to stop feeling sorry for the abused child when he grows up to be the abuser, right?
 
Wait, is it? Unless you actually knew that massage parlor - and in particular the individual offering the massage is an individual who is in a condition of exploitation, you basically belong to that same group as the hypothetical coffee scenario - i.e. impassive supporter or indirect contributor. You can't be an active exploiter if you don't know that the individual in question is exploited.

As mentioned before, it would take someone much more dumb than Layton to not know there was a good chance he was exploiting someone or that a seedy Chinatown "shiatsu" massage parlor is not suspicious. That is just willful ignorance.

I argue against both - instead of taking the lowest common denominator - at the end of the day, we'd have to ask ourselves why we think it is ok to consume products that is literally the by product of slave labour (at an even more horrendous scale) and yet we are willing to draw such sharp boundaries against other types of exploitation. I suspect emotional and cognitive distance is the reason.

I'm not saying that the former is OK, only that there is a clear distinction between directly perpetrating exploitation and indirectly supporting it. Neither are fine, but there is a difference between the two.


And I think that's moral sophistry. It's precisely how sweatshops and child labour and third-world pollution and other forms of exploitation are allowed to occur, because it doesn't seem to be caused by the purchasers of the products of that exploitation. You can't buy a car from someone you think is a car thief and not be morally implicated in their crimes. There is little moral difference from enslaving children to make clothes and buying clothes from a company you suspect uses child slave labour. If anything, the intentional willful ignorance of the latter situation is worse.

Well, I think this is moral equivalence. There is a clear difference between someone who steals a car and someone who purchases a stolen car. Yes, the latter is implicated in the crime, but these are recognized as different crimes by the law and are clearly different magnitudes of wrong.

Unfortunately our society is set up in such a way that most people indirectly support exploitation multiple times daily. Its in the very fabric of our society. In fact, if you trace every purchase back far enough through however many degrees of connection, its quite possible literally every purchase you make supports some sort-of injustice or exploitation. Furthermore, any purchase by a consumer involves some degree of uncertainty - its not possible to be completely clean or not morally compromised in some way. As well, with almost any consumer purchase there is a degree of moral compromise - eat meat and animals need to be slaughtered, have a pet and buy them food which is processed in developing nations with high rates of starvation and hungry poor. Yes, there are a lot of injustices, but that doesn't mean they are all of the same severity.

So, yes, in lieu of this, I do think several degrees of separation do dilute the severity of supporting exploitation in contrast to directly administering it. There's a difference between buying a food product, which you need for eating and which probably does support exploitation in some way if you trace it back far enough, and directly exploiting an immigrant sex worker by making her jerk you off.

The reason I really don't like your line of thinking is that it excuses basically any immorality and draws a moral equivalence between everybody no matter the degree of their crimes. Do you really think you (who I'm going to assume has purchased a Nestle product in your life, or Apple, or some other major corporation product) are the same as a guy who flew to Thailand and fucked a kid once? You really want to equivocate that? There's a clear difference in severity there. I feel like it really takes a lot of academic, spurious reasoning to equivocate these two things.


There is also a crucial difference between the Rob Ford and Jack Layton scenarios (beyond the repeatability aspect, which has already been mentioned) - the former has associations with the individuals with criminal involvement around the drug trade; there is absolutely no evidence of Layton's involvement with the operators of the parlour, other than being the recipient of a hand job. That's a very important distinction.

Fair enough. The reason I see the Layton scandal as more problematic is because his act was directly exploiting someone.

I hate to burst your bubble, but there's a massage parlour in my old neighbourhood that I visited with relative frequency and received very high quality massages (and nothing else),

Sure...:eek:

sometimes from people who appeared to be recent immigrants. Some of the masseuses would sometimes complain about clients requesting sexual services. Later, I read in the paper that someone had been busted there for offences of a sexual nature, but I can assure you that, if it was a rub-n-tug, it was not strictly a rub-n-tug. The place Layton was in could have been more clear cut, but you're making it sound as if it is always clear-cut, which it is not.

Well, we don't know that, but we do know that it was under investigation by the police and that it was located in a neighborhood where there are a lot of illicit massage parlors. Plus, he was naked, which should have set off red flags for him.

Also, if your only source to "convict" Layton is a police notebook of a cop who (by virtue of his holding on to the notebook for years and then selectively and illegally leaking it at a politically opportune time) clearly had an axe to grind against Layton, then that's far, far below the word of two Toronto Star reporters. Again, Layton may or may not have done what he is accused of having done, but the available evidence is specious.

If the officer had an axe to grind against Layton, he could easily have arrested Layton or leaked this to the press the moment it happened. This "axe to grind" argument is the exact same narrative some Ford supporters use in regard to the Toronto Star, and it just doesn't wash.

Another argument leveled at Ford which equally applies here is that Layton never denied the allegations. There's a police officer, with his notes from the day as proof, alleging Layton was at a massage parlor, was naked, had wet tissues disposed of, and Layton not only confirmed that he was at the parlor on the day and encountered the police, but did not deny being naked or any of the other allegations.

The whole Layton scenario has about as much proof as the Ford-crack scandal. There's no concrete proof, but all logic and reason, along with the reactions of the targeted parties, points towards the allegations being true.
 
i don't think the florida location is a deco location now / anymore. the phone number listed is out of service. but, those charges happened over a decade ago. maybe deco was there then.

i happened to come across some more deco labels and tags location anomalies. from http://www.canadianmanufacturing.com/packaging/automation/in-it-for-the-long-run-19135...

"the company today operates three strategically-located manufacturing locations in Toronto, Chicago and Pennsaulken, N.J., to serve the labeling needs of some of the continent’s leading manufacturers of food-and-beverage, pharmaceutical, personal-care and other everyday consumer products, with the start-up of another Deco manufacturing facility in southern U.S. also in the cards in the near future"

that's from 2010.

i can't find a deco labels and tags in pennsaulken. what is in pennsaulken is Wise Tag & Label (http://www.wisetaglabel.com/)

and why doesn't it say returning to having a facility in the southern US?
 
I think it's probably a case of sibling rivalry over the parents' attention. He seems like he was a pretty unremarkable kid growing up in a house full of - ahem - big personalities. He wasn't terribly good at school or sports, nor did he eventually prove to do well in business. So when his father noticed some of his positive qualities - his ability to connect with people and his genuine desire to help them - that's what his life became, even if those qualities had to be twisted and contorted to conform to his parents' politics, a type of politics I don't think he's ever really understood (in fact, I'm pretty sure he doesn't really understand politics at all). Note that parental attention doesn't necessarily have to be positive attention - I can see a brooding little Rob jealously looking on at how much attention his big sister was getting, for example. The fact that none of the Ford bros. seem to have gotten over this sibling rivalry BS (witness the weight loss fiasco, for example) speaks volumes to the level of maturity cultivated by their parents.

He's really just this pathetic little boy who's never really grown up. But - and I'm not entirely certain how metaphorically I'm speaking here - you have to stop feeling sorry for the abused child when he grows up to be the abuser, right?

"And that family psychodrama takes a turn with the Globe‘s explosive report, which portrays Doug and other brother Randy all those years ago as involved in serious, questionable business, while Rob runs his laps around the track all alone trying to focus on football. After they finished school, Randy was running the family label operation in Toronto, Doug was off to Chicago to build it into an international concern, and Rob, well, as the Globe story has someone putting it, “Robbie just did not have the passion for labels.” So Rob runs for city council, and wins, and has his own little fiefdom where he is the bigtime Ford. But when he ran for mayor, Doug decided to tag along…"

http://www.thegridto.com/blog-post/the-problem-with-dougies-people-taking-over/
 
Any theories about why Ford even wants to be mayor? I really can't understand why any person with his history would want to be in his position. I mean, what does he get out of this job at all? Does he genuinely care about Toronto or are the true motives hidden? Rob could have stepped out of the spotlight, worked at Deco and be a very rich man. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

Robbie only cares about getting attention, and not having to take any responsibility for his cock-ups. Deco is to much responsibility for him to handle, just like university. He could be on a mission to finish the job his father started being part the Harris team to punish Toronto.
 
Robbie only cares about getting attention, and not having to take any responsibility for his cock-ups. Deco is to much responsibility for him to handle, just like university. He could be on a mission to finish the job his father started being part the Harris team to punish Toronto.

punish toronto makes me think of this quote...

Richard Florida, who labeled Ford “the worst mayor in the modern history of cities, an avatar for all that is small-bore and destructive of the urban fabric, and the most anti-urban mayor ever to preside over a big city,”

http://www.newgeography.com/content/003765-the-mad-drive-subvert-democracy-toronto
 
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