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Rob Ford's Toronto

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CowboyLogic said:
In what way is going to a rub-and-tug worse than smoking crack? I'm surprised anyone would disagree with me on this.

A lot of the women at illicit massage parlors, particularly Asian women (as there likely would have been in the Shiatsu massage parlor in Chinatown Layton was found in), are sex slaves or victims of human trafficking. Human trafficking is a huge problem with Asian escorts and other immigrants - a lot of these women are poor, destitute immigrants with no resources or support and are essentially forced into the sex trade. These aren't self-employed high-end escorts (who are more likely to be sex workers of their own volition). If anybody even so much as denies this or accuses me of being a social conservative prude, I will link all the statistics here.

For the record, I don't really care about Layton being found in a rub-and-tug, but I'm just saying that its easily worse than smoking crack and was basically brushed aside by the media. Not to mention that he clearly was being tugged off, and the media went along with the whole "smear campaign" angle.



So...you're denying that Layton was found in a rub-and-tug? Something he himself admitted. Something which there is tangible proof of in the form of an officer's notes. From now on, please don't accuse any Ford supporters of being ignorant of the facts or delusional.



I don't think there's anything circular about my logic. There are plenty of justified criticisms of Ford, but the media has overstepped their ethical boundaries in going after him, which is why the justified criticisms don't stick. There's nothing circular or even that complex about that logic, and my own anecdotal experience with the Ford haters in my life backs this up. Most of my family and friends both dislike Ford and do not trust the Toronto Star when it comes to Ford. And lest my anecdotal experience is questioned again, at least one poll has produced the same results...there are more people who distrust the Star than there are Ford supporters.



I'm repeating these things because, as of yet, nobody has adequately countered any of them.

A while back, I posted a list (off the top of my head) of all the Star's most egregious ethical violations, questionable reporting and just downright unwarranted attacks on the Mayor. A few people responded to me while simultaneously avoiding actually acknowledging anything I said. One person quibbled with whether or not the Star ever published more than one "TMZ-style video" (this was a bit pedantic IMO, but I suppose they were technically correct). Only one person actually went through and responded to all my points.

The Star definitely has crossed the line in going after Ford. I don't feel like going through the whole list again, but in particular, one of the worst things the Star did (beyond refusing to print a retraction or apology for a story that was proven false) was actually attempt to mislead the public by publishing a three-to-four-week-old poll on the front of the GTA section. The headline, lede and first couple paragraphs all gave the impression that this was a new poll and that Ford's popularity was dwindling, and it was only somewhere in the fourth paragraph or later on that they specified how old the polling numbers were. In my opinion, it is completely inexcusable for any newspaper to attempt to mislead the public.



I agree with this...to a degree. That's certainly a factor, but personal scandals often do effect other politicians too.
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Just stop saying 'rub-and-tug' and I'll agree with anything else you want to say.
 
CowboyLogic said:
And lest my anecdotal experience is questioned again, at least one poll has produced the same results...there are more people who distrust the Star than there are Ford supporters.
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Correction: there are more people who "distrust" the mass media than there are Ford supporters--Star, Globe, Sun, public & private broadcasters all alike. At least, if you ramp up definitions of "trust" so that they're defined by a modern version of the apparently-commonplace "Walter Cronkite couldn't be wrong" sentiments of the 1960s--which, in the end, aren't too dissimilar to Ford Nation logic...
 
Got to love how a thread about Rob Ford got turned into one about Layton's appearance in a Rub and Tug and Toronto Star's journalistic ethics. And some accuse others of not sticking to the topic in a discussion! Let's take stock here:

Fact: Rob Ford has a history of being economical with the facts, be it around his personal behaviour and his policies.
Fact: Rob Ford has a history of dubious behaviour in the public that is contrary to expectations of *any* public official.
Fact: Rob Ford is entangled in a web of relationships, some of which that are clearly criminal in nature.

Changing the topic won't change these realities.

AoD
 
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So...you're denying that Layton was found in a rub-and-tug? Something he himself admitted. Something which there is tangible proof of in the form of an officer's notes. From now on, please don't accuse any Ford supporters of being ignorant of the facts or delusional.
Click to expand...

But you are delusional, show me where in my post I denied anything....I'm simply agreeing that a massage is the same as smoking crack....which, based on your logic, is something you appear to be doing when posting.
 
For the record, I don't really care about Layton being found in a rub-and-tug, but I'm just saying that its easily worse than smoking crack
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Then you care even less than the chief magistrate of our fair city is smoking crack with crack-dealing gang members? (one of which is deceased via murder). You must really not care about much except supporting political dogma at all costs.
An extra-marital handjob is easily worse how? Legally? Morally?

It doesn't really matter, as the equalizer is that they both LIED about it. I do not believe a guy as smart as Layton innocently believed he was in a legit business getting a legit massage. Although I will admit not really knowing the details of this story, because I too don't care if politicians are getting extra-marital hand jobs.

And lying is what bothers people.

Just stop saying 'rub-and-tug' and I'll agree with anything else you want to say.
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Rub-and-tug...sounds like something Smurfs do.
 
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freshcutgrass said:
Then you care even less than the chief magistrate of our fair city is smoking crack with crack-dealing gang members? (one of which is deceased via murder). You must really not care about much except supporting political dogma at all costs.
An extra-marital handjob is easily worse how? Legally? Morally?
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'An extra-marital handjob' is one thing when between consenting adults in private but what Cowboylogic is alluding to is sexual exploitation on the part of Layton, lying about it and deliberately misleading the public, and the hypocrisy and lack of judgement his indiscretions represent... hmmm, no correlation at all for you here?

In other words he's debunking the fatuous claim here that insists that while people on the 'left' are supposedly always clear-eyed and informed responsible voters Ford Nation is merely blindly, willfully and ignorantly staying loyal to their political cause (and the flawed leader that represents it, unfortunately) at all cost. Glass houses, really.

For the record though I do believe the crack thing is the worse of two evils. They both involve extensive, destructive criminal networks but the drug thing definitely has a wider reach.
 
CowboyLogic said:
There are plenty of justified criticisms of Ford, but the media has overstepped their ethical boundaries in going after him, which is why the justified criticisms don't stick. There's nothing circular or even that complex about that logic, and my own anecdotal experience with the Ford haters in my life backs this up. Most of my family and friends both dislike Ford and do not trust the Toronto Star when it comes to Ford. And lest my anecdotal experience is questioned again, at least one poll has produced the same results...there are more people who distrust the Star than there are Ford supporters.
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Rather juvenile thinking and behaviour. If the big media tells us something we're not going to believe it, just because.

Near as I can tell, most media in the city concerning the Ford's have worked like this: Tell the bare outline of the incident, often referencing the one or two media organizations who actually try to uncover stories (say on CP24: "The Star reported yesterday...); send a reporter to hang around the City Hall elevator and collect denials, obfuscations and carefully measured criticisms, giving them all equal weight and veracity; then make the story about the public reaction, with polls, opinion pieces, Stephen LeDrew commentaries, Twitter collections.

Let's take the three stories from this past weekend:
1. Mayor Ford drove while intoxicated and played the ass in public.
2. Mayor Ford was threatened by the drug-dealing boyfriend of his drug and violence ravaged sister because he owed money.
3. Mayor Ford made an unorthodox and suspicious visit to a prison, hoping to see a boyhood friend with a history of drug abuse.

Which of these three stories should not be investigated further for fear of turning the public towards the Fords because the media is picking on them? Should they all be left to lie as is?

Doug Ford actually accused journalists this week of 'wanting to be investigative reporters'. Aren't you doing the same?
 
Tewder said:
'An extra-marital handjob' is one thing when between consenting adults in private but what Cowboylogic is alluding to is sexual exploitation on the part of Layton, lying about it and deliberately misleading the public, and the hypocrisy and lack of judgement his indiscretions represent... hmmm, no correlation at all for you here?
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Has anyone defended Layton's actions in this matter? You agree that an office holder being involved in the drug trade is worse than getting a handjob, so what is the hypocrisy here?

And just when did Rob Ford's qualifications for mayor involve a politician who a) never held that office, and b) is dead? Do Layton's failings somehow excuse the sitting mayor of involvement with murderous drug gangs?
 
'An extra-marital handjob' is one thing when between consenting adults in private but what Cowboylogic is alluding to is sexual exploitation on the part of Layton, lying about it and deliberately misleading the public, and the hypocrisy and lack of judgement his indiscretions represent... hmmm, no correlation at all for you here?
Click to expand...

Except that you are reaching here - first of all, those providing sexual services aren't necessarily all individuals who have been exploited and/or involved in human trafficking. Second, there are no collaborating evidence that this incident is criminal, much less representative of a pattern of behaviour and third, there is no evidence that it has affected his performance as an official. Even assuming that there was sex work involved, can you legitimately say that crack use and the close ties with drug traffickers is of the same level of wrong as utilizing the services of a sex worker? I don't know, can you show up to work looking like you're under the influence of a rub-and-tug (I guess you can, on a lighter note, with a big smile on one's face).

In other words he's debunking the fatuous claim here that insists that while people on the 'left' are supposedly always clear-eyed and informed responsible voters Ford Nation is merely blindly, willfully and ignorantly staying loyal to their political cause (and the flawed leader that represents it, unfortunately) at all cost. Glass houses, really.
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Of course the "always" is problematic - but can you honestly say that those on the left would have tolerated repeated offences that Rob Ford et al has committed? To err once is human - to err again and again on the same issues and expect forgiveness is insane. Beyond that, let's not forget Jack Layton would not have much in the way of influence on the local police force as part of his job - you can't say the same for Rob Ford.

AoD
 
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Tewder said:
'An extra-marital handjob' is one thing when between consenting adults in private but what Cowboylogic is alluding to is sexual exploitation on the part of Layton, lying about it and deliberately misleading the public, and the hypocrisy and lack of judgement his indiscretions represent... hmmm, no correlation at all for you here?

In other words he's debunking the fatuous claim here that insists that while people on the 'left' are supposedly always clear-eyed and informed responsible voters Ford Nation is merely blindly, willfully and ignorantly staying loyal to their political cause (and the flawed leader that represents it, unfortunately) at all cost. Glass houses, really.

For the record though I do believe the crack thing is the worse of two evils. They both involve extensive, destructive criminal networks but the drug thing definitely has a wider reach.
Click to expand...



Honestly. I can't grasp why people bring up Jack Layton's possible illegal/immoral activity in defense of Rob Ford's. Ford and Layton are not in competition. Their faults aren't in competition either.
Whatever the severity of Jack Layton's indiscretions, they are irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Not just because Layton is dead and gone, but also because one person's bad acts do nothing to mitigate another person's bad acts.

Only if Ford used Layton as a role-model and got caught in a similar situation could you use Layton as the excuse for Ford's behaviour.

It's like using Conrad Black's fraud as an excuse for street racing.
 
animated:

It's an attempt to discredit Ford's critics by the argument that they are incapable of levelling unbiased judgement. Shoot the messenger instead of message.

AoD
 
Honestly. I can't grasp why people bring up Jack Layton's possible illegal/immoral activity in defense of Rob Ford's. Ford and Layton are not in competition. Their faults aren't in competition either.
Whatever the severity of Jack Layton's indiscretions, they are irrelevant to the issue at hand.
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Cute!
 
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