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Rob Ford - Why the Supervillian?

Justwhat is your definition of efficiency?
Strictly speaking, it's defined as the ratio of the work performed to the energy expended. $ are substituted here for energy.

Glen has a point. Efficiency should be based on the real full cost of each rider, regardless of whether that cost is farebox recovered or subsidized.
That would be another measure of efficiency. One could create many measures of efficiency. Not sure what the protest is ... the user above simply said that by a certain measure of efficiency (fare box recovery ratio) Toronto is very efficient. Looking at your table, this also seems true.

I know this doesn't fit into the right-wing conspiracy theories about Toronto being the city in the worst-shape in North America, and that we are on the verge of imminent collapse of both housing prices, and aluminium foil supplies ... but that's reality for you.
 
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I had no idea a simple fact would cause so much arguing...lol. Look, the accusation here is that the TTC is wasting money. I was simply pointing out that per dollar spent, the TTC gets less subsidy than any other local transit system in North America and possibly Europe (I should probably qualify that by saying that I'm not talking about Latin America, which isn't comparable economically to the richer countries). In that context, it's quite possibly the least wasteful transit agency in the industrialized western world.
 
I had no idea a simple fact would cause so much arguing...lol. Look, the accusation here is that the TTC is wasting money. I was simply pointing out that per dollar spent, the TTC gets less subsidy than any other local transit system in North America and possibly Europe (I should probably qualify that by saying that I'm not talking about Latin America, which isn't comparable economically to the richer countries). In that context, it's quite possibly the least wasteful transit agency in the industrialized western world.

What does the source of the funding have to do with how wisely it is spent?
 
What does the source of the funding have to do with how wisely it is spent?
Given that over 80% of the source is the farebox, and Toronto fares aren't grossly higher than many other cities (and according to Kettal's metric, the spending per ride is lower), then doesn't it help demonstrate how wisely it is spent?

I expect much of the arguing, is that the data challenges this myth that many have, that the TTC is wasting a lot of money, and provides lousy service. When reality is that when comapred to similiar agencies, it actually gets a very good bang for the buck.
 
Given that over 80% of the source is the farebox, and Toronto fares aren't grossly higher than many other cities (and according to Kettal's metric, the spending per ride is lower), then doesn't it help demonstrate how wisely it is spent?

I expect much of the arguing, is that the data challenges this myth that many have, that the TTC is wasting a lot of money, and provides lousy service. When reality is that when comapred to similiar agencies, it actually gets a very good bang for the buck.

One more time --- The source of the TTC's funding is absolutely irrelevant and they are not guilty of underserving the public in most cases but guilty of overserving the public with far too many vehicles operating on schedules that are convenient to the operators only. Management and their elected superiors can't seem to muster the balls to confront the unions and leave them to run the show.

Management is equally complicit in this disaster as their obvious aim is to generate more routes, more vehicles, more employees etc. to showcase at their conventions (mine is bigger than yours). Ridership counts are non existent because they are of no value in the current scheme of things. If you don't believe me ask Steve Munro.
 
I didn't know that a system that recovers what, about 80% of operating costs through fares - fares which are broadly comparable to those in North America and much more favourably to those in Europe constitute a "disaster". And yes, Glen, if that isn't sufficient proof of system efficiency (I don't mean efficiency at the operational or management level even) - perhaps you should go out, do the math and figure out say the operating cost of the system on a per ride or even per km/person-trip basis.

And spider, empire building conspiracy theories aside, do you seriously believe that the ridership on the TTC isn't higher than it was say, even a few years ago? Not having route by route ridership counts that are accurate doesn't mean one can't gauge the general level of service utilization. And by your logic, a good chunk of the 905 shouldn't have ANY service at ANY time of the day.

Then again, who knows if you actually use the system instead of just following that one bus around. Besides, you're the one proposing increasing taxes by 20% to pay for subways.

AoD
 
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FS:

Oh, I've been humbled by that whole experience, I had no idea that I was coming across as crazed to the forum. Reading back the posts now, I wished I had taken more time to edit and preview before I hit submit.

Humbled? You certainly don't sound like it. Besides, no amount of editing will change the fact that you got even the basics wrong.

It did however make me realize something, that June of last year Rob Ford was present at that TTC meeting in Leslieville standing up for the constituents while according to anecdotal evidence Giambrone, Bussin and Fletcher were indifferent to the questions being raised. This was long before he could've possibly known Miller was resigning or Tory would not be running in opposition; and he was in one of the safest ward seats in the city. Ergo, what did he stand to gain via being there? It sounds like a genuine case of caring about community issues. Seems like a lot of people don't get it.

There are a zillion other projects with far greater impact than this one - why show up here and not others? And by constituents, which ones are you referring to? The ones who complained, or the ones that accepted this project? Besides, don't tell me RF decided to run in the last minute.

This isn't so much about Rob Ford as it is about the backlash against self serving politicians using their council seat to promote their own interests and their political agenda which goes opposite to their elected position. They should be representing their constituents best interests, not their own. People are tired of watching tax dollars being spent by councillors on what is basically political activism rather than what is good for the city. It is what drives people to dispair. Manage the cities money, spend it wisely is all we ask. Very few to date have achieved this and those that have are always right of center who realize whose money they are spending. It has to stop somewhere, somehow.

Funny how you managed to transpose your own interest and political agenda as the of the public by default.

This is just another prime example of how much Team Ford's viewpoints kind of coalesce with my own.

Really? Team Ford disvowed the said blog, if you didn't realize:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tor...-ford-advisor-s-blog-suggests-privatizing-ttc

So are you suggesting that the said candidate has a hidden agenda, or what?

Miller likes to equate Europe with the "world-class" standards that Toronto should thrive to be living up to (inferiority complex, much?). Did you know that European countries, whose supranational EU government has rigorously enforced "competition" schemes in transport, have basically forced the public-sector out of transportation? In general, the European authorities have split their rail operations between the publicly owned tracks and rights-of-way and the private or semi-private rail service providers with the intention of using the track owner to ensure equitable distribution of resources throughout the country and "better service" through competition in train operations.

Perhaps this article and a few others it links to would perk your interest in the EU experience:

http://www.humantransit.org/2010/02/privatized-transit-and-or-vs-the-public-good.html

Beyond that, please feel free to inform me the level of government subsidies required after this exercise in the realignment of public and private ownership and operation of transit?

The biggest expansions of public transit anywhere up until now where done by private companies before they were made public (early NYC, London, Paris, etc). This is because money isn't wasted on uneconomic lines.

Or Toronto, even - and do remind me why the TTC was formed?

I think there is plenty of value in thinking about transit in terms of "things we do because we think the make sense in their own right" and "things we do because we want to have a more fair society". When you combine the two into the same agency, rational decision making becomes paralyzed. The fact that Canadian transit systems have become hugely burdened with social service functions is killing them financially, preventing expansion where it is needed, and creates a stigma around transit, buses in particular, generally as a service for poor and minorities.

Interesting you chose to blame the stigma of buses - certainly, it didn't stop a great number of individuals from most social classes from using the TTC bus service; on the other hand, you have a premium system like VIVA, which remains a marginal operation with a similiarly marginal level of impact of modal split in spite of having little to no stigma attached.

The people who are advocating privatization or PPP of public transit (at least those who have any political clout) are not suggesting that the there not be any regulation of transit fares or where transit routes are put. In fact, most of them still want the government to completely make those decisions. They just want the operations of the system to be privatized. Maybe a trial basis outsourcing of TTC operations would make the workers more appreciative of what they have and what they stand to lose via being too greedy, lazy and rude to customers. I applaud any politician with the gumption to challenge a union monopoly in a bid to save taxpayers' money.

I am all for flexibility in the provision of certain TTC services - I am just not convinced RF is the person to do it, considering his stated agenda vis-a-vis transit. BTW, since you're on the topic of "rational decision making", please play CLOSE attention to the piece by Marcus Gee I've posted on here. I am sure you will have plenty to say as to why reactionary decision making personified by RF is superior. And yes, having 5x density around a subway node is "irrational, bad planning". Please inform me how your personal beliefs align with say, Team F's on the matter?

AoD
 
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Going by the recent dreary trajectory of discussion in this thread, sometimes I wonder whether there should be a separate "Urban Transit Toronto" forum.
 
One more time --- The source of the TTC's funding is absolutely irrelevant and they are not guilty of underserving the public in most cases but guilty of overserving the public with far too many vehicles operating on schedules that are convenient to the operators only. Management and their elected superiors can't seem to muster the balls to confront the unions and leave them to run the show.

Management is equally complicit in this disaster as their obvious aim is to generate more routes, more vehicles, more employees etc. to showcase at their conventions (mine is bigger than yours). Ridership counts are non existent because they are of no value in the current scheme of things. If you don't believe me ask Steve Munro.

Are you blind? Read the chart

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TTC is very economically efficient compared to other systems.
 
Exactly. How can you be economically efficient without also being efficient in other ways? If you have greater fuel consumption per passenger for example that would be reflected in the costs. If you had more empty seats per bus then you would have greater costs (bus + driver + fuel) per passenger. The idea that the TTC is completely inefficient compared to other systems is obviously incorrect. While there is certainly room for improvement which is why there is such an outcry over staff sleeping, obviously the TTC is doing some things much better than other agencies. There route by route analysis of performance and the routing of buses into stations is likely a large part of this. There are many routing changes the TTC has tried out and cancelled, and many they have tried out and kept and it was all determined by performance.
 
It would be incredibly efficient if they canceled all routes except the Yonge/University subway. It would also be incredibly efficient if we stopped offering street cleaning and garbage removal to low density neighbourhoods in Toronto's suburbs.
 
What I think should happen is the carrot in front of donkey approach.

However, have city workers water grass and create bike lanes in front of a cart pulling Rob Ford and Presto! Rob would get angry and try to get at the city workers to tell them to stop and we'd have a great transit system. And Bike lanes!

But seriously. most of this should be on the transit forum.
 
I apologize if this has already been posted,

He's not a supervillian at all, he's just well, dumb, to put it gently:
http://www.robfordmayor.com/

I think he'll put Mel to shame :)
 
The adjective I have heard around the locker room from a bunch of gents who aren't exactly of the left - is "buffoon". And yes, I have a feeling the bunch clamoring for him is the same batch who voted for Mel. Some people never learn.

AoD
 

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