Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[W. K. Lis]

For Ontario, there is no Highway Number One. There is no number assigned to signs for the Trans-Canada Highway(s) in Ontario.

From link.

 

[ShonTron]

True for the federal Interstate Highway System. I'm not convinced Ontario had any particular system or pattern and, at the state level, or provincial level in other provinces, I'm not sure they have much of a system or pattern either.

There was an early pattern when the numbers were first set up. And I mentioned before, Highway 2 was once continuous from Windsor, Ontario to Halifax, Nova Scotia.

One hundred years of Ontario’s provincial highways

On February 26, 1920, Ontario’s provincial highway network was born. That year, 16 highways were established across southern Ontario, between the Ottawa and Detroit Rivers. These highways, pr…

seanmarshall.ca

 

[Steve X]

My guess is that it'll be 419. Highway 19 is the nearest, lowest number local east-west highway in the area that doesn't already share it's number with a 400-series highway.

For Ontario, there is no Highway Number One. There is no number assigned to signs for the Trans-Canada Highway(s) in Ontario.

From link.

Unlike most province, Ontario like Quebec see themselves above Canada and never places their number inside the Trans Canada signs. Instead it’s just a sign that tags along with the provinces own highway shield. That is if they remember to put it up.

Also they don’t treat it as one important highway especially the southern Ontario route but just a collection of highway that only has a symbolic appearance. I really don’t see anything actually driving along 69>400>12>7(115) from Sudbury to Ottawa.

 

[gweed123]

There was an early pattern when the numbers were first set up. And I mentioned before, Highway 2 was once continuous from Windsor, Ontario to Halifax, Nova Scotia.

Yup, that was my "it sort of did at one point" comment. The initial 1920s numbering made sense (except for Highway 11), but when the added the next round of routes the whole thing just became a jumbled mess.

Quebec did a complete renumbering in the 70s, and their system makes total sense.

 

[whydidimakethis]

Unlike most province, Ontario like Quebec see themselves above Canada and never places their number inside the Trans Canada signs. Instead it’s just a sign that tags along with the provinces own highway shield. That is if they remember to put it up.

Also they don’t treat it as one important highway especially the southern Ontario route but just a collection of highway that only has a symbolic appearance. I really don’t see anything actually driving along 69>400>12>7(115) from Sudbury to Ottawa.

I never saw the value in the 69>400>12>7 route simply because each of the highways it followed were major provincial highways on their own as it is and just designating a chunk of them as part of a route around the country never made sense especially since they are not even the most logical way to go (7 is the possible exception, although if it really mattered it would follow the 401). Even 60 is a better link. 11 and 17 deserve it because these are truly cross- provincial highways that can be used to cross the province from Manitoba to Quebec. I would like to see them signed better as actual trans Canada routes with proper shields with numbers. The northern Quebec route at least makes sense, because it is the most direct route to western Canada.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Yup, that was my "it sort of did at one point" comment. The initial 1920s numbering made sense (except for Highway 11), but when the added the next round of routes the whole thing just became a jumbled mess.

Quebec did a complete renumbering in the 70s, and their system makes total sense.

Got worse with Mike Harris' downloading of highways and expressways to local governments, to show off that they are "saving" money for the "little folks". It not only increased taxes for the local municipalities, but the numbering of regional roads got even more confusing. Should have kept the provinicial numbering system, at the very least, even if it was bad to start.

 

[ARG1]

Got worse with Mike Harris' downloading of highways and expressways to local governments, to show off that they are "saving" money for the "little folks". It not only increased taxes for the local municipalities, but the numbering of regional roads got even more confusing. Should have kept the provinicial numbering system, at the very least, even if it was bad to start.

My question then is why isn't there a push to reupload the downloaded highways? You would think that the liberals or NDP would try to regain control of the provincial highways, or for the local municipalities to try and lobby for it.

 

[11th]

Very interesting! I always figured that if the 400-series standard was carried further east, that it would cross Hwy 7 at the current 7/115 intersection, and then veer eastward, running parallel to but north of the existing Hwy 7. I wonder what the rationale is for going around Peterborough on the west and north sides. Maybe just as a ring highway? It could also be used to carry Hwy 7 around the north side of Peterborough, instead of going down, over, and back up.

With regards to numbering, I figured once the 35/115 RIRO was upgraded to 400-series standards, that the whole 115 would be signed as 428, and 35 would just end at their current merge point. I can't think of any locations in Ontario where a King's Highway meets a 400-series highway, and both designations are carried to their junction with another 400-series highway. It would be like if Hwy 27 continued along Hwy 427 to the QEW, instead of ending at their junction point. The only concurrencies I can think of that would come close would be like Hwy 6 at the 401 and 403, but in both cases it continues both north and south of those concurrencies.

They can also do:
35/115 from 407 to 35 + 115 to Peterborough (Highway 7) -> 407
35/115 from 401 to 35 -> 435

There will be a short concurrency (407 E/W and 435 N/S) between 35 and the existing 407 interchange.
Or keep it simple with only the 401 to 407 section signed as 435 and skip the concurrency.

 

[lenaitch]

Quebec did a complete renumbering in the 70s, and their system makes total sense.

What is this system that makes sense? I'm not seeing it.

 

[ericmacm]

My question then is why isn't there a push to reupload the downloaded highways? You would think that the liberals or NDP would try to regain control of the provincial highways, or for the local municipalities to try and lobby for it.

There has been a push in Windsor to upload E.C. Row so the city doesn't have to bear the burden of upgrading the road to modern standards. Only thing is that it's the perfect investment if you want to spend tons of money rehabbing one of the worst highways in the province.

It's unfortunately not in the best interest of the province to re-acquire highways that are just going to be barely maintained at the minimum level by the cities or municipalities anyway.

 

[wopchop]

What is this system that makes sense? I'm not seeing it.

More importantly, who in this world when lost on a highway sees a sign and says to themselves "the number is odd, I must be heading east!"

 

[gweed123]

They can also do:
35/115 from 407 to 35 + 115 to Peterborough (Highway 7) -> 407
35/115 from 401 to 35 -> 435

There will be a short concurrency (407 E/W and 435 N/S) between 35 and the existing 407 interchange.
Or keep it simple with only the 401 to 407 section signed as 435 and skip the concurrency.

That would work too. Certainly some continuity between 407 and 7 would be welcome. The only issue I potentially see with that is that most people associate 407 with tolled, so having a free section of the 407 connecting to a tolled section may be confusing for people, as they may incorrectly assume the current 115 would be a toll highway as well, and avoid it. I know there are plenty of interstates in the US that have tolled and non-tolled sections, but that's somewhat of a rarity in Canada.

What is this system that makes sense? I'm not seeing it.

Autoroutes are numbered based on the US Interstate numbering system (autoroutes ending in either 0 or 5 are major trans-provincial routes, other 2-digit routes are primary routes, 3-digit routes are auxiliary routes). For non-autoroute highways, 100-series are major trans-provincial routes, 200-series are more local routes (akin to County highways in Ontario) south of the St. Lawrence, and 300-series are local routes north of the St. Lawrence.

All routes have their lowest numbers in the south and west (Autoroute 5 for example is the major N-S route in the Gatineau area, which is paralleled by Route 105), and highest numbers in the north and east (Route 299 in Gaspe cuts north-south across the peninsula).

 

[whydidimakethis]

Theoretically if Ontario had the Autoroute numbering scheme it would probably be:

417- 40
402- ? (This is a strange one because of it's relative position to other hwys)
401- 20
115- 45
403- 10
416- 75
418- 720
412- 520
404- 55
400- 45
427- 35
410- 25
407- Oakville section- 310, Peel York Durham section- 30

 

[gweed123]

Theoretically if Ontario had the Autoroute numbering scheme it would probably be:

417- 40
402- ? (This is a strange one because of it's relative position to other hwys)
401- 20
115- 45
403- 10
416- 75
418- 720
412- 520
404- 55
400- 45
427- 35
410- 25
407- Oakville section- 310, Peel York Durham section- 30

Yup, pretty close. While technically the 401 does dip south of the 403 in the southwest, I would think they would stick with 20 just to be consistent with Quebec's A-20. I also wouldn't give the 427 a '5' number, since it's mostly within the GTA, and doesn't extend beyond it.

 

[kamira51]

Once all of 69 is widened, will it be renamed to 400?