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Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

nfitz said:
I recall some fuss when opening, that it had been built to older standards, which were the legal minimum, rather than what MTO actually used on it's own highways.

On the other hand, perhaps after so many years, I've misremembered.
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Substandard bridge designs and lack of protected barriers are some of the points raised for the originally ETR sections. However They still meet bare minimum required in Ontario.
 
innsertnamehere said:
Lol that may be narrow by Mississauga standards but that’s an insanely wide street. 50 is quite comfortable on a street like that. It’s just not 4 lanes (though it looks wide enough that it could be painted for 4 lanes if they wanted to).

I can’t remember ever seeing a genuinely narrow street in Mississauga. Every road there seems to be over built to 150% of what is needed.

Generally speaking I’m not too upset about lower urban speed limits, lower rural limits are what bother me. That and slapping speed limits on urban roads that are way, way below the design speed (like a 40 limit on a major suburban arterial, or the short lived 50 limit on the Bayview extension).
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Steve X said:
Unless there is kids around or during school hours, I don't see a problem with going 50-60 on such road. Toronto roads are much narrower and yet 50 is still possible. It just depends on traffic, condition and time of the day.
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I am not sure how you are okay with having the same speed limit on a street with cars parked on both side and having a long term care home versus a 4 lane street with no parking and no frontages?

Can you show me such a road in Toronto with speed limit of 50?
 
Deadpool X said:
I am not sure how you are okay with having the same speed limit on a street with cars parked on both side and having a long term care home versus a 4 lane street with no parking and no frontages?

Can you show me such a road in Toronto with speed limit of 50?
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No, because Toronto has far lower speed limits than most of the province. A suburban collector road like that is very, very typically designated for 50 basically anywhere else in the province.

A quick measure of that road width is 12.5m curb to curb, which is enough to paint it for 4-lanes with 3m central lanes and 3.2m outer lanes. Those are narrower than typical in Mississauga, but are standard lane widths for a 50km/h road in Toronto. A local collector in Toronto like that would also not be nearly 12.5m wide, likely more like 10-11m.

The reality is that the street, with the parked cars on both sides, effectively leaves about 7.5 metres of width for vehicles to actually travel. This means that each direction has at least 3.75 metres of lane width - equal in width to the lanes on 400-series highways. It's very comfortable to drive 50 on that street with the way it is designed.

Should it be a 40km/h street? maybe. But as it is right now, drivers would feel very comfortable doing 50-60km/h on it due to good sight lines and excessive lane widths. It is definitely not a "narrow" street designed to encourage low vehicle speeds.

The original point of the discussion was that slapping artificial lower limits doesn't do much, and that street is a perfect example of where slapping a 40 limit on it would make councillors look like they are "doing something", but where the road would still be very comfortably designed for vehicles to do far higher speeds. To reduce speeds on the street properly, they would have to narrow the roadway and introduce speed bumps.
 
Steve X said:
Substandard bridge designs and lack of protected barriers are some of the points raised for the originally ETR sections. However They still meet bare minimum required in Ontario.
Click to expand...
My recollection is that after the external review, they ended up adding some protection, extending some of the entry lanes, and added rumble strips before they could get approval to open. It's interesting to see that since then, MTO has started the wide-spread use of rumble strips as well.
 
innsertnamehere said:
No, because Toronto has far lower speed limits than most of the province. A suburban collector road like that is very, very typically designated for 50 basically anywhere else in the province.

A quick measure of that road width is 12.5m curb to curb, which is enough to paint it for 4-lanes with 3m central lanes and 3.2m outer lanes. Those are narrower than typical in Mississauga, but are standard lane widths for a 50km/h road in Toronto. A local collector in Toronto like that would also not be nearly 12.5m wide, likely more like 10-11m.

The reality is that the street, with the parked cars on both sides, effectively leaves about 7.5 metres of width for vehicles to actually travel. This means that each direction has at least 3.75 metres of lane width - equal in width to the lanes on 400-series highways. It's very comfortable to drive 50 on that street with the way it is designed.

Should it be a 40km/h street? maybe. But as it is right now, drivers would feel very comfortable doing 50-60km/h on it due to good sight lines and excessive lane widths. It is definitely not a "narrow" street designed to encourage low vehicle speeds.

The original point of the discussion was that slapping artificial lower limits doesn't do much, and that street is a perfect example of where slapping a 40 limit on it would make councillors look like they are "doing something", but where the road would still be very comfortably designed for vehicles to do far higher speeds. To reduce speeds on the street properly, they would have to narrow the roadway and introduce speed bumps.
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Toronto has also reduced the speed in so many areas for the Vision Zero Plan. A bunch of odd places they have lowered like the Bayview Extension. Within the 5 years I have lived at my place a street near me has gone from 50-40-30, a cross-walk installed and then a light. (mind you there was an unfortunate death) by drastic changes over a short period.

It is good to see them reviewing the speed limits in general. When self driving becomes more widespread we will have less need for these discussions especially on the highways.
I do like the idea of implementing the digital speed signs over the lanes similar to other countries.
 
nfitz said:
My recollection is that after the external review, they ended up adding some protection, extending some of the entry lanes, and added rumble strips before they could get approval to open. It's interesting to see that since then, MTO has started the wide-spread use of rumble strips as well.
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I don't know when will the MTO recognize they need to widespread installing median/centre line rumble strips on undivided highways. This would cut head on collisions in half from all the distracted driving and falling asleep on the wheel.
 
Steve X said:
I don't know when will the MTO recognize they need to widespread installing median/centre line rumble strips on undivided highways. This would cut head on collisions in half from all the distracted driving and falling asleep on the wheel.
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There is a small section of Hwy 6 from the 403 to just south of Hamilton Airport that the MTO had added centre line rumble strips a number of years ago. Aside from that stretch, I am not aware of any other provincial highways that have them. I agree that there should be more of them.

goo.gl

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
goo.gl goo.gl
goo.gl

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
goo.gl goo.gl
 
EYorker said:
There is a small section of Hwy 6 from the 403 to just south of Hamilton Airport that the MTO had added centre line rumble strips a number of years ago. Aside from that stretch, I am not aware of any other provincial highways that have them. I agree that there should be more of them.

goo.gl

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
goo.gl goo.gl
goo.gl

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
goo.gl goo.gl
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I can't think of any either off the top of my head. Their go-to for 'problem areas' seems to be centre line cat's eyes.
 
Steve X said:
Here you go: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.680...4!1sX8vud9OYhl7ujyHEKWi9Ng!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
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That's a little absurd that they have 50 on this street and I am very sure this is an exception, not a norm. Also, there are no cars parked on the sides and this road is straight and you will have good visibility of kids darting towards your car. You would see kids well before they are out of their driveway. Unlike that curved street in Mississauga I showed where it is much easier for kids to show up announced from between the parked cars.
 
nfitz said:
My recollection is that after the external review, they ended up adding some protection, extending some of the entry lanes, and added rumble strips before they could get approval to open. It's interesting to see that since then, MTO has started the wide-spread use of rumble strips as well.
Click to expand...
Source? might be an interesting read.
 
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