Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[innsertnamehere]

Hey now, it is just leased (for 99 years)
At least (ha!) we learned our lesson and toll 407 East ourselves.

Speaking of 407 ETR, many sections have reached their maximum width with the OG design limit, with other stretches reaching full build out soon. What's next for the 407? I hope it's replacing the cheap loop ramps at major interchanges with proper flyovers. When done, we'll get a few more stackie bois so 400/407 won't be alone as Canada's only true stack interchange.

I don't expect those to get replaced any time soon as they aren't capacity issues. The only two that are even close to capacity is 407W to 404S and 410S to 407E as far as I know and even then they operate generally fine.

The bigger question is if the 407 will move to some more creative solutions to keep building highway capacity like building a collector-express system.

The 407 has proven to be quite cheap in terms of building new infrastructure other than new lane widenings - they have left new interchanges to provide additional access unbuilt and partially built for decades now...

- Upper Middle Rd in Burlington
- Bramalea Rd is only a half interchange, can be a full
- Goreway Rd is a half only, can be a full
- The original 407 EA included an interchange at Kipling, though that may not be feasible today
- Centre St in Vaughan still has land available to build it's planned interchange, though the existence of the Viva BRT may complicate it.
- Both 9th line and Donald Cousens are missing multiple ramps.

The only ones 407ETR is even thinking of addressing relatively soon are a few of the ramps at 9th Line and Donald Cousens, but even then only partially.

 

[lenaitch]

Does the fire department accept credit cards?

Ontario man charged $1,000 by fire department after his truck goes up in flames​

From link.

While certainly not defending the collection process; i.e. why he apparently only became aware of the charge when the debt was assigned to a collection agency, most fire departments have fees for certain services. If he moved, it is unlikely the FD would know his forwarding address - they don't have 'bad debt' departments to chase this stuff down.

Here is Toronto's:

Fire Prevention & Rescue Fees

Source: Toronto Municipal Code Chapter 441, Fees and Charges Appendix B – Schedule 1, Fire Services The following is a summary of the Toronto Municipal Code Chapter 441, Fees and Charges. Fees effective April 1, 2022 Note: The fees below include HST.

www.toronto.ca

Most fire departments will bill for services on provincial highways since that service isn't supported by the property tax base.

 

[W. K. Lis]

While certainly not defending the collection process; i.e. why he apparently only became aware of the charge when the debt was assigned to a collection agency, most fire departments have fees for certain services. If he moved, it is unlikely the FD would know his forwarding address - they don't have 'bad debt' departments to chase this stuff down.

Here is Toronto's:

Fire Prevention & Rescue Fees

Source: Toronto Municipal Code Chapter 441, Fees and Charges Appendix B – Schedule 1, Fire Services The following is a summary of the Toronto Municipal Code Chapter 441, Fees and Charges. Fees effective April 1, 2022 Note: The fees below include HST.

www.toronto.ca

Most fire departments will bill for services on provincial highways since that service isn't supported by the property tax base.

Whew! Some of those "emergency services" are HST exempt.

 

[ShonTron]

Most fire departments will bill for services on provincial highways since that service isn't supported by the property tax base.

Unless you’re a resident of the municipality providing the service. Say if you crash on the 401, Toronto Fire will ask for your address for billing purposes. If you have a Toronto address, you won’t get a bill.

 

[whydidimakethis]

The bigger question is if the 407 will move to some more creative solutions to keep building highway capacity like building a collector-express system.

Agree to disagree- It's wide enough for the foreseeable future. Another lane for the N-S 403-401 section could be built (if not planned already), should be the last widening project for now.

 

[lenaitch]

Unless you’re a resident of the municipality providing the service. Say if you crash on the 401, Toronto Fire will ask for your address for billing purposes. If you have a Toronto address, you won’t get a bill.

There has been an agreement since, I think, the 1970s, between the MTO and the Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs that the fire service bills the MTO (at an established per-truck x time rate). Individual services have the option to opt out. There is legal authority for the MTO to recover from the involved parties but I am unaware what their criteria or process is, that is all 'back of house' stuff for emergency responders. It could be that TFS does not bill the MTO if they determine the involved parties are city residents. If there is an insurance claim, these charges are usually at least partially covered. Many fire services consider provincial highway response as 'out of area'.

 

[Steve X]

The bigger question is if the 407 will move to some more creative solutions to keep building highway capacity like building a collector-express system.

I don't think the 407 is allowed to do that. That'll require an EA and would likely exceed their property and extend into the reserved land for the 407 transitway (MTO retains part of the corridor). If the 407 is to take on such expansion, Queen's Park should have the rights to deny it or say they need a cut of all the new profits.

 

[darth_freeman]

The bigger question is if the 407 will move to some more creative solutions to keep building highway capacity like building a collector-express system.

They don't need to increase capacity. They'll just increase the tolls in those sections to lower demand to keep rush hour flowing at 120 km/hr.

 

[dullturtle06]

hi, so does anyone know why the MTO highway design is still in the 1950's. their overpasses are huge barriers in the community. In Quebec the new highways are being designed in a way the fit into the urban fabric and can be easily crossed by cyclists and pedestrians.

1. They have colour making them inviting
2. good lighting at night
3. massive sidewalks on both side (approximately 4 m in width on both sides)
4. very attractive landscaping.

looking at the MTO's new highway overpasses they have horrible lighting, 1 meter for cyclists and pedestrians, and look so bad. literally a wall with a hole in it.

the pictures i included are from 2 montreal overpasses on the A15, and a new overpass on the 401. i wish MTO would actually put so effort in making their highways have less impact on the community.

 

[DirectionNorth]

hi, so does anyone know why the MTO highway design is still in the 1950's. their overpasses are huge barriers in the community. In Quebec the new highways are being designed in a way the fit into the urban fabric and can be easily crossed by cyclists and pedestrians.

1. They have colour making them inviting
2. good lighting at night
3. massive sidewalks on both side (approximately 4 m in width on both sides)
4. very attractive landscaping.

looking at the MTO's new highway overpasses they have horrible lighting, 1 meter for cyclists and pedestrians, and look so bad. literally a wall with a hole in it.

the pictures i included are from 2 montreal overpasses on the A15, and a new overpass on the 401. i wish MTO would actually put so effort in making their highways have less impact on the community.View attachment 363644View attachment 363645View attachment 363646View attachment 363647

A lot of the Ontario highways have huge traffic volumes, which means wider highways.

The MTO has much higher design standards than the MTQ ... for cars. This means over-excessive interchanges, ramp space, and terrible pedestrian infrastructure.

Finally, it's because MTO never built really built freeways through built up areas; it was mostly greenfield construction. Where they did (Ottawa, Kitchener-Waterloo, St. Catherines, Niagara Falls), the design is much tighter. You're comparing urban/inner-suburban interchanges in Montreal to outer-suburb interchanges in Toronto.

 

[W. K. Lis]

When they rebuilt overpasses (or underpasses) over the 400-series of highway, they included provision for 3-lane arterial roads, but the sidewalks remained narrow and no berms for snow windrows.
This one from the Sheppard Avenue West over Highway 400. The rest of Sheppard Avenue remains 2-lanes, but not here.

From link.

 

[dullturtle06]

A lot of the Ontario highways have huge traffic volumes, which means wider highways.

The MTO has much higher design standards than the MTQ ... for cars. This means over-excessive interchanges, ramp space, and terrible pedestrian infrastructure.

Finally, it's because MTO never built really built freeways through built up areas; it was mostly greenfield construction. Where they did (Ottawa, Kitchener-Waterloo, St. Catherines, Niagara Falls), the design is much tighter. You're comparing urban/inner-suburban interchanges in Montreal to outer-suburb interchanges in Toronto.

the 401 goes through a built up urban area especially in the west end. The MTO should get their act together and have different design standards for urban built up areas. Such design excellence doesn't exist anywhere in the province. The on and off ramps are built to protect drivers but are extremely dangerous for anyone not in a car. This cuts communities in half.

even in very urban areas the design is severely lacking. so im just curious why no one in the MTO dosent see the need for better design in urban areas. rural areas are fine, i understand but this should be addressed.

oh and the images is from st. catherines, same design as 401 in toronto.

 

[DirectionNorth]

the 401 goes through a built up urban area especially in the west end. The MTO should get their act together and have different design standards for urban built up areas. Such design excellence doesn't exist anywhere in the province. The on and off ramps are built to protect drivers but are extremely dangerous for anyone not in a car. This cuts communities in half.

even in very urban areas the design is severely lacking. so im just curious why no one in the MTO dosent see the need for better design in urban areas. rural areas are fine, i understand but this should be addressed.

oh and the images is from st. catherines, same design as 401 in toronto.
View attachment 363650

I don't like it ... but it is what it is.

 

[nfitz]

hi, so does anyone know why the MTO highway design is still in the 1950's. their overpasses are huge barriers in the community. In Quebec the new highways are being designed in a way the fit into the urban fabric and can be easily crossed by cyclists and pedestrians.

You are not really using the Turcot interchange as an example of good highway design are you? I admit the new reconstruction is an improvement, but the footprint is still huge, and the destruction of that neighbourhood, both above and below the escarpment, was horrific when it was first done. I don't see much restoration of the neighbourhood. And there's a lack of bike lanes.

Quebec highway standards remain behind us. Merging distances remain very short - look at the ones on the 20 westbound just west of Angrignon for example. And then there's suicide merges like westbound on the 40 at the 25, where there's literally zero merging distance for the leftbound lane on the 40 - amazingly they left that there with the recent extensions of the 25 across the back river.

Yes, this is an improvement, but as part of the same project, they've built the new east-west road (Pullman) almost like it's an expressway, with 4 lanes and a huge median. They certainly didn't try and make that look very urban - and the sidewalks aren't particularly impressive either. Part of this project was replacing the St. Jacques bridge - the sidewalks there are still narrow - and extremely univiting. Almost as bad as the urban hell that is Upper Lachine crossing just to the north, where they've not even bothered to try and improve it, actually making it even more brutalistic with the new suicide barrier, looking like a barbed wire fence at a prison. Or perhaps it's not a suicide barrier, and an attempt to stop people being blown away by the high winds whipping down the expressway that are created under the right (wrong) weather conditions. I used to take a bus 2 stops to the Metro rather than dare cross that bridge on a -30C windy winter day (I wasn't saving any time!).

Sorry - I spent too much time in nearby St-Raymond ... where the only recent urban construction looks like it was designed on cheap by the mafia, and rubber stamped by corrupt Mayor Applebaum, who had to resign as mayor after being charged (and later convicted) of multiple counts of corruption and bribery. Oh wait ... it was ...

 

[dullturtle06]

You are not really using the Turcot interchange as an example of good highway design are you? I admit the new reconstruction is an improvement, but the footprint is still huge, and the destruction of that neighbourhood, both above and below the escarpment, was horrific when it was first done. I don't see much restoration of the neighbourhood. And there's a lack of bike lanes.

Quebec highway standards remain behind us. Merging distances remain very short - look at the ones on the 20 westbound just west of Angrignon for example. And then there's suicide merges like westbound on the 40 at the 25, where there's literally zero merging distance for the leftbound lane on the 40 - amazingly they left that there with the recent extensions of the 25 across the back river.

Yes, this is an improvement, but as part of the same project, they've built the new east-west road (Pullman) almost like it's an expressway, with 4 lanes and a huge median. They certainly didn't try and make that look very urban - and the sidewalks aren't particularly impressive either. Part of this project was replacing the St. Jacques bridge - the sidewalks there are still narrow - and extremely univiting. Almost as bad as the urban hell that is Upper Lachine crossing just to the north, where they've not even bothered to try and improve it, actually making it even more brutalistic with the new suicide barrier, looking like a barbed wire fence at a prison. Or perhaps it's not a suicide barrier, and an attempt to stop people being blown away by the high winds whipping down the expressway that are created under the right (wrong) weather conditions. I used to take a bus 2 stops to the Metro rather than dare cross that bridge on a -30C windy winter day (I wasn't saving any time!).

Sorry - I spent too much time in nearby St-Raymond ... where the only recent urban construction looks like it was designed on cheap by the mafia, and rubber stamped by corrupt Mayor Applebaum, who had to resign as mayor after being charged (and later convicted) of multiple counts of corruption and bribery. Oh wait ... it was ...

So you like ontarios highway design of 1 meter sidewalk beside 6 lane roads with cars going 70km/h. Or the on ramp design were the cars are speeding up to 100km/h while on the street, and forcing pedestrians to cross these on ramps at unsignalized crossings. Oh and the rotting concrete walls. Urban highway design should minimize the impact, other people need to cross these areas besides drivers and they should be designed with that in mind. If the mafia build them, then good on them for doing a much better design then the MTO.

In Europe the highway design are built for 140km/h speed but also have small footprints and design interchanges to have less impact on the urban landscape. Oh and they use soundwalls like crazy to limit noise.