Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[sjc]

Looking at Google Earth to try to place this discussion, I found a bridge over the 400 that seems incredibly pointless -- West of Gordon Bay, 45°12'27.53"N 79°49'0.96"W -- GOOGLE MAPS LINK

Does anyone know what the purpose of this bridge is? Has later construction(that doesn't show in Google) linked that road to something? It looks like quite a nice bridge for a road that doesn't go more than a few hundred feet in either direction.

 

[sjc]

As I said, freeway sections that aren't directly connected to the rest of the freeway network aren't given 400 numbers. The Highway 400 numbering is getting extended as it gets widened from south to north.

Is that a new rule? Until recently, the 417 didn't connect to anything, at least not any freeways in Ontario. It did/does connect to the freeway network in Quebec, so I guess that could count.

 

[gweed123]

Is that a new rule? Until recently, the 417 didn't connect to anything, at least not any freeways in Ontario. It did/does connect to the freeway network in Quebec, so I guess that could count.

It was the exception for a while. However, even when the 417 was being planned, the 416 was on the drawing board (although the final version looked almost nothing like what was originally planned, especially the section running through Ottawa). The plan was always to connect it to the rest of the network, and you're right, it did connect with the Quebec network, and at one point comes within just a couple kms of Highway 20 (the 401 on the Quebec side). For those two reasons, I think they decided to number it as a 400 series highway.

 

[Markster]

Being connected to the "larger network" is really not a defining feature of being labelled 400-series. Being a consistent route is. The 417 was built with the primary purpose of connecting Ottawa to Montreal. It just wasn't important to Trudeau to get a freeway to Toronto.

The 69 is getting relabelled 400 as the freeway standard marches northward, but there is no point in relabelling the disconnected sections until it's a cohesive route.

Other non-400 freeways generally lack a distinct "start", or are relatively short.

Looking at Google Earth to try to place this discussion, I found a bridge over the 400 that seems incredibly pointless -- West of Gordon Bay, 45°12'27.53"N 79°49'0.96"W -- GOOGLE MAPS LINK

Does anyone know what the purpose of this bridge is? Has later construction(that doesn't show in Google) linked that road to something? It looks like quite a nice bridge for a road that doesn't go more than a few hundred feet in either direction.

Looks like an ATV/snowmobile crossing.

 

[nfitz]

I thought I saw Environmental Assessment notices for a couple of 401 EA study between Halton and Mavis the other day; both with websites ... and damned if I can find any mention of it on the Internet.

I can easily find the Warden to Brock EA - http://www.highway401wardentobrock.ca and the Halton to Heslper EA - http://www.highway401-hespeler-halton.ca

Hmm, and many other recent non-401 such as:

www.highway11study.ca
www.brantford-cambridge-ea.ca
7and8corridorstudy.ca
www.highway60.ca
ww.427corridor.com
www.407eastea.com
www.highway69.ca
www.4lanehighway17kenora.ca
www.niagara-gta.com
www.gta-west.com

Someone should keep a list of these somewhere ...

 

[nfitz]

Well to reply to my own post. After a big more digging. The one project is:

http://www.highway401credit-to-trafalgar.com need user and password to enter (both are 'public').

Seems the first PIC is on Monday March 21st (4pm Four Points Sheraton Hotel – Meadowvale Room - 2501 Argentia Road, Mississauga)

And the other is:

http://highway401milton.com (Trafalgar to Highway 25)

(though that isn't recent ... so was there yet another one I saw? Though with the Hespler to Halton one above, that's the entire corridor from Cambridge to Mississauga except from just west of Guelph Line to Highway 25 in Milton.

 

[ShonTron]

Being connected to the "larger network" is really not a defining feature of being labelled 400-series. Being a consistent route is. The 417 was built with the primary purpose of connecting Ottawa to Montreal. It just wasn't important to Trudeau to get a freeway to Toronto.

Looks like an ATV/snowmobile crossing.

The federal government did not historically fund provincial highway construction - some exceptions were made for the Trans-Canada Highway when constructed, and now the feds provide direct funds for specific capital projects. So no need to single out Trudeau - the 417 was needed before the 416, though even in the 1970s the MTO began planning the conversion of 16 to 416, by building Hwy 16 on a new alignment designed for a full upgrade between Prescott and Manotick (and a new alignment to the 417). Though in the early/mid 1990s I remember signs directing Ottawa-bound motorists to use Highway 15 northeast from Kingston, the shortest route, but also a slower route than even the 401 and 1980s-era 90 km/h Highway 16.

You are correct about that bridge as a snowmobile/ATV crossing. There's a large culvert further south on 400 near Port Severn that serves a similar function.

 

[CDL.TO]

Interestingly, that Hwy 400 bridge isn't on the snowmobile paths map.

 

[ShonTron]

Nfitz, thanks for the links. I looked closely at the Highway 7/8 one and am glad with the route choices, particularly for Shakespeare. It makes a lot of sense to route it directly south of the CN (leased by RailAmerica operated as GEXR) tracks and keep the traffic out of Shakespeare, which is what the townspeople wanted. Now that they've agreed upon a route, they can come up with cross-sections and detailed design. The use of Lorne as a Stratford bypass is a decent idea, but Lorne is a local industrial road that would have to be upgraded seriously to handle both local and medium and long distance traffic. If I played with these on maps, I would have gone with a fresh alignment just south of Lorne.

They talk about traffic two and from the 401 and Woodstock as justification for a southern alignment (among other things) - that's regional (or inter-regional, depending on how you look at it) traffic, which should be served by a provincial highway. It was, but no longer.

 

[nfitz]

The use of Lorne as a Stratford bypass is a decent idea, but Lorne is a local industrial road that would have to be upgraded seriously to handle both local and medium and long distance traffic. If I played with these on maps, I would have gone with a fresh alignment just south of Lorne.

I was looking at that one too (used to live that way!). I wouldn't be surprised if that's what they have in the back of their minds. For now feed the traffic into Stratford using Lorne ... and in the long run, it leaves open the option of extending the expressway portion of highway 7 further down to St. Marys.

Of course then, you start to wonder if would head to London and resurrect the northern bypass of London, joining the 402 near Strathroy.

And 8 heads from Stratford to Goderich. I can't imagine in the next century that piece will ever be needed to be upgraded to an expressway!

 

[adma]

Re "disconnected" 400-series highways: remember that 402 started out as the upgraded controlled-access Blue Water Bridge approach in Sarnia, i.e. as a stub, isolared from anything else...

 

[Markster]

The federal government did not historically fund provincial highway construction - some exceptions were made for the Trans-Canada Highway when constructed, and now the feds provide direct funds for specific capital projects. So no need to single out Trudeau - the 417 was needed before the 416, though even in the 1970s the MTO began planning the conversion of 16 to 416, by building Hwy 16 on a new alignment designed for a full upgrade between Prescott and Manotick (and a new alignment to the 417). Though in the early/mid 1990s I remember signs directing Ottawa-bound motorists to use Highway 15 northeast from Kingston, the shortest route, but also a slower route than even the 401 and 1980s-era 90 km/h Highway 16.

You are correct about that bridge as a snowmobile/ATV crossing. There's a large culvert further south on 400 near Port Severn that serves a similar function.

The Trudeau thing is mostly a joke.
Though, from what I hear from my parents, even if the Feds weren't fronting the cash, they were still very concerned with a connection to Montreal. The routing of the 417 certainly isn't apolitical. It runs so far from the Ottawa river as an explicit protest by the Provincial gov't of the time that a highway funded by Ontario wasn't going to serve Quebec.

 

[Dan416]

Well to reply to my own post. After a big more digging. The one project is:

http://www.highway401credit-to-trafalgar.com need user and password to enter (both are 'public').

Seems the first PIC is on Monday March 21st (4pm Four Points Sheraton Hotel – Meadowvale Room - 2501 Argentia Road, Mississauga)

And the other is:

http://highway401milton.com (Trafalgar to Highway 25)

(though that isn't recent ... so was there yet another one I saw? Though with the Hespler to Halton one above, that's the entire corridor from Cambridge to Mississauga except from just west of Guelph Line to Highway 25 in Milton.

I would like to know why the current phase of widening the 401 to a express-collector setup is only being done up to Hurontario. I get on at Mavis everyday before 7 am and traffic is already congested by 6:30ish.

 

[nfitz]

The routing of the 417 certainly isn't apolitical. It runs so far from the Ottawa river as an explicit protest by the Provincial gov't of the time that a highway funded by Ontario wasn't going to serve Quebec.

That is absurd! Where on earth do you get such stuff? Do you recall Davis ever being anti Quebec?

The reason that it doesn't follow the river is because of the difficulty of constructing on the Leda clay. Rightly or wrongly it was an engineering decision to play safe and not risk a chunk of expressway just flowing away one day.

 

[nfitz]

I would like to know why the current phase of widening the 401 to a express-collector setup is only being done up to Hurontario. I get on at Mavis everyday before 7 am and traffic is already congested by 6:30ish.

The phase has to stop somewhere ... when they started the contract, it was already the largest construction contract MTO had going. Though I thought the current phase did provide for extra lanes running from Hurontario to Mavis ... but only 3 under Mavis. So if your getting on at Mavis you should benefit. And benefit well, as the lanes you are entering will enter just after the bottleneck.

Wow, 6:30 ... at 7:00 my commute is like a ghost-town ... but that's why I live in Toronto.