Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[Dan416]

I don't care who goes up to Wasaga or Collingwood. What I care about is not spending money to build 100 km of highway to just sit empty 5 days a week and 6 months a year. And the idea that it will magically eliminate congestion on summer weekends is laughable, considering the state of the 400.

By the way, I live in a world where literally millions of people are stuck in congestion twice a day because the golden horseshoe lacks viable transportation alternatives. I would love to stimulate the economy in small towns across Ontario, but I would prefer to use that money to eliminate wasted time in our largest economy.

I think your view is rather shortsighted.

 

[ShonTron]

I think a 410 to Collingwood is overkill, but I don't think the status quo makes sense either. Highway 10/410 offers at least four lanes all the way to Shelburne except a short section of the Highway 10 Bypass around Orangeville and a short section north of Hockley Road to Highway 89. I'd finish the bits of four-laning needed, perhaps build interchanges where Highway 9 meets Highway 10 and where the Orangeville Bypass (Dufferin Rd 109) meets 10.

I'd build an at-grade by-pass around Shelburne to provide a quicker way for 10 to get towards Owen Sound, as four-lane the section near Owen Sound where it is concurrent with Highway 6 south to Chatsworth and build some decent passing lanes (there's none between Shelburne and Owen Sound despite heavy traffic with often difficult-to-pass slow bumpkin drivers). The province should not have downloaded Highway 24 North, it could have been improved as well to provide a better link to Collingwood.

Highway 26 is a disaster - the solution is not a 410 extension, but a Highway 26 diversion around Barrie built to high-quality standards. I'd even make the inner section of such a bypass, linking with the 400 somewhere near Innisfil Beach Road and somewhere on Highway 26 west of Midhurst. This would unplug the notorious Bayfield Road off-ramp, allow through traffic to avoid the weaving of traffic through Barrie, and miss Bayfield through the mall district. It need only be a simple dual carriageway highway at-grade, but even a 426 branch off 400 would make more sense than the 410 going all the way.

After the point where Highway 26A/26D/426 meets current 26, add some passing lanes and allow the traffic to fliter away towards Wasaga, and complete 26-New around the Wasaga-Collingwood route.

That's all you need - a better Highway 10, a reinstatement of Highway 24, and a new Highway 26 alignment.

 

[Dan416]

I think your solution sounds rather confusing and convoluted (probably because I've never heard of half the highways you refer to). A 410 extension all the way is the most straight-forward and simple solution. The simplest solution is usually the best.

 

[Haljackey]

Regarding the extensions of the existing 400-Series Highways, allow me to offer my input.

69/400: Finishing the link to Sudbury will finally create a proper north-south link between Southern Ontario and the rest of Canada.

401: The extension to Detroit (the Windsor-Essex Parkway) is a must and should have been done 50 years ago.

404: A small extension would be nice as it represents a route on the eastern side of Lake Simcoe. It will surely be extended if the Bradford Bypass is approved.

406: Widen the existing un-twinned part, but I'm not sure if an extension is justified.

407: I think it can be extended to the 35/115, especially since it will be tolled and owned by the province.

410: As someone who lives outside the GTA, I can tell you that the 410 is just as much a long-distance freeway as it is as a commuter route. Extending it to Orangeville is a good idea in my opinion as it would help travelers who are traveling to Collingwood, Blue Mountain, Wasaga Beach and other areas. Building it further than that is probably overkill.

17/417: The Trans-Canada Highway should have been built as a freeway across our country. If the US Taxpayers could afford the entire Interstate Highway system, surely Canadians could cough up enough cash for one east-west freeway. Twinning the segment between Sault St. Marie and North Bay might be good for the long-term, but I can't see it getting upgraded much more than that.

420: Extending it to connect with the Thorold tunnel and Highway 406 would take a lot of pressure off the QEW in St. Catherine's and Niagara Falls. Perhaps a further extension might be possible if the Mid-Peninsula Highway is approved.

427: Canada's second busiest highway just seems to come to an abrupt halt north of the 407. A small extension might be justified. It will surely be extended if the Bradford Bypass is approved.

 

[TOareaFan]

I have always thought that a 410 up to Orangeville/Shelburne made sense....and that, beyond that, a more direct road connecting to our Ski/beach areas of Collingwood/Wasaga made sense. Not sure what routes/right of ways are available but I am picturing a road like 11 that goes to Muskoka/Huntsville cottage country beyond the 410.

Someone made the comment (likely tongue in cheek) that it would sit empty 6 months of the year......well since that area is our ski country I doubt that very much.

There is a great 4 season tourist/vacation draw northwest that could rival the Muskoka area if people could get to it. Little personal experience.....living northwest of Toronto we visit friends on the Bruce once a year in the summer and we do the same with friends in Huntsville......the friends on the Bruce are a little closer to us geographically......yet it takes roughly twice as long to get to their place.

This should not, clearly, be a "priority" but it makes no sense to me to dismiss it out of hand either. Perhaps 410 extending northward is the perfect opportunity to experiment with a bit of publicly owned toll road. People vacationing/funning in the Collingwood/Wasaga area will likely not mind paying a bit if it gets them on the slopes or sand that bit faster.....people in the cottage parts of the region won't mind either.....if their property values see a resultant increase in value because their equally beautiful part of the world becomes as attractive to people as the more accessible cottage country regions.

EDIT: The biggest concern about extending the 410 really should be "can the existing/southern parts of the road handle the additional traffic that extensions bring".....in my daily commute I touch the 410/401/427/Gardiner......by far the 410 part of that commute (in either direction) is the most congested and slow moving and takes a disproportionate percentage of the overall time on the road.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I don't care who goes up to Wasaga or Collingwood. What I care about is not spending money to build 100 km of highway to just sit empty 5 days a week and 6 months a year. And the idea that it will magically eliminate congestion on summer weekends is laughable, considering the state of the 400.

By the way, I live in a world where literally millions of people are stuck in congestion twice a day because the golden horseshoe lacks viable transportation alternatives. I would love to stimulate the economy in small towns across Ontario, but I would prefer to use that money to eliminate wasted time in our largest economy.

Why so angry? You were the one who brought up the "privileged class".

As I said it's not priority #1 but it should be on the list. They don't need to be 6 lane super highways, North of say hwy 9 they can drop down to controlled access 4 lane highways. Take a look at the U.S (not that I'm advocating a U.S. interstate program) the highways between towns are only 4 lanes (2 in each direction), when they enter a populated area they expand to 6 to handle the load.

I have always thought that a 410 up to Orangeville/Shelburne made sense....and that, beyond that, a more direct road connecting to our Ski/beach areas of Collingwood/Wasaga made sense. Not sure what routes/right of ways are available but I am picturing a road like 11 that goes to Muskoka/Huntsville cottage country beyond the 410.

Someone made the comment (likely tongue in cheek) that it would sit empty 6 months of the year......well since that area is our ski country I doubt that very much.

There is a great 4 season tourist/vacation draw northwest that could rival the Muskoka area if people could get to it. Little personal experience.....living northwest of Toronto we visit friends on the Bruce once a year in the summer and we do the same with friends in Huntsville......the friends on the Bruce are a little closer to us geographically......yet it takes roughly twice as long to get to their place.

This should not, clearly, be a "priority" but it makes no sense to me to dismiss it out of hand either. Perhaps 410 extending northward is the perfect opportunity to experiment with a bit of publicly owned toll road. People vacationing/funning in the Collingwood/Wasaga area will likely not mind paying a bit if it gets them on the slopes or sand that bit faster.....people in the cottage parts of the region won't mind either.....if their property values see a resultant increase in value because their equally beautiful part of the world becomes as attractive to people as the more accessible cottage country regions.

EDIT: The biggest concern about extending the 410 really should be "can the existing/southern parts of the road handle the additional traffic that extensions bring".....in my daily commute I touch the 410/401/427/Gardiner......by far the 410 part of that commute (in either direction) is the most congested and slow moving and takes a disproportionate percentage of the overall time on the road.

The 410/403/401/427/409 exchange is one of the biggest bottlenecks in the region's transportation network and should really be addressed. 5 major (ok 4 really) highways all meeting in one big clusterf**k. It would be a multi billion dollar project but what I'd like to see is the following:

- First. Extend the 403 east along eastgate parkway and into a tunnel to connect with the 409. This would relieve some of the congestion that the rest of the construction would cause.
- Complete current cunstruction on the 410 turning it into a full on highway south of 401. Also, build a full interchange at 401 with ramps to/from express and collectors. Terminate a 403 with a full interchange. It would also remove the need for vehicles on the 403 to access the airport without touching the 401 and give an alternative route to the 401 (403-409 vs 403-410)
- Straighten out the kink in the 427 at the 401 and widen the highway to 6 lanes (3 in each direction) This is a major bottleneck on the 427 as the curve forces drivers to slow to 90 km/hr (posted) and the reduction of 1 lane each way clogs up that stretch of road

 

[gweed123]

I never quite understood why the 403 and 410 were separately numbered highways. It seems to me like the 410/403/401 interchange could be reconfigured to have the 403 just continue north, instead of starting an entirely new highway.

Also, I think one of the biggest (and also simplest, requiring almost no new infrastructure) ways of reducing the load on the QEW is to swap the 403 and 407 portions west of their interchange. Let me explain in more detail. At the 403/407 interchange west of Winston Churchill, both highways basically make a 90 degree turn (south and west respectively). Why not have the section of the 403 that goes directly south to the QEW be renumbered as the 407, and the stretch of the 407 west of that interchange, all the way to the Burlington QEW/403 split be renumbered the 403. That way, the 407 would end at the QEW and Ford Drive, and the 403 would continue to Burlington as a separate highway, eliminating the dual signage (and dual load) that the QEW between Ford Drive and Brant St carries.

Now, I know the folks at ETR wouldn't take to kindly to this, but I'm sure some sort of cost-sharing agreement could come out of it, that would compensate them for the lost amount of highway. Or maybe a deal with the eastern extension of the ETR could be made. Just a thought.

 

[TOareaFan]

- Complete current cunstruction on the 410 turning it into a full on highway south of 401. Also, build a full interchange at 401 with ramps to/from express and collectors. Terminate a 403 with a full interchange. It would also remove the need for vehicles on the 403 to access the airport without touching the 401 and give an alternative route to the 401 (403-409 vs 403-410)

Not sure I can (quickly) picture/understand all of your ideas but the one I bolded is one that I have been advocating for some time. To the layman (me) it does not look like it would be that difficult to have access from the 410 south to the 401 express lanes eastbound. A lot of mornings there are "issues" on the 401.....if a southbound 410 driver hears that the collectors are jammed they have no way to avoid it as they are forced into those lanes....even if their ultimate destination is the express lanes. I understand that the goal of collectors is to "collect" traffic from roadways onto the highway, get it up to speed and then allow them to transfer to the express....but there are precedents where other 400 series roads meet the 401 for giving vehicles direct access to either the express or collectors.

 

[gweed123]

Not sure I can (quickly) picture/understand all of your ideas but the one I bolded is one that I have been advocating for some time. To the layman (me) it does not look like it would be that difficult to have access from the 410 south to the 401 express lanes eastbound. A lot of mornings there are "issues" on the 401.....if a southbound 410 driver hears that the collectors are jammed they have no way to avoid it as they are forced into those lanes....even if their ultimate destination is the express lanes. I understand that the goal of collectors is to "collect" traffic from roadways onto the highway, get it up to speed and then allow them to transfer to the express....but there are precedents where other 400 series roads meet the 401 for giving vehicles direct access to either the express or collectors.

The 401/404/DVP interchange for one. Heading northbound on the DVP, you have the option of going into the eastbound express or the collectors. The southbound Allen exists also have exists in both the express and collector lanes.

 

[nfitz]

I never quite understood why the 403 and 410 were separately numbered highways. It seems to me like the 410/403/401 interchange could be reconfigured to have the 403 just continue north, instead of starting an entirely new highway.

From what I've read, the original plan was that the 410 would have gone all the way to the QEW down Cawthra, and the 403 would have continued east down Eastgate Parkway and through Centennial Park to join the 401 at the 401/427/Richview interchange. Not sure quite when this died, but sometime in the 1970s or earlier. Also the plan was that the 403 would have continued west along the 407 alignment all the way to Burlington, and that the short piece of 403 from QEW to 407 would have been numbered 407; that died when 407 became private.

 

[gweed123]

Also the plan was that the 403 would have continued west along the 407 alignment all the way to Burlington, and that the short piece of 403 from QEW to 407 would have been numbered 407; that died when 407 became private.

That pretty much describes what I described in that same post that you quoted, haha.

 

[Haljackey]

Regarding the 403/410 numbering:

Highway 403 is an east-west freeway. Highway 410 is a north-south freeway.

To designate Highway 410 as the 403 would mean there would be 2 Highway 403 exits on the eastbound 401. One at Woodstock, again in Mississauga.

Highway 403 was supposed to use the Highway 407 corridor between the QEW and the current 403/407 junction. Since the 407 was built instead, the QEW is co-signed as the 403 in Burlington and Oakville.

Due to the discontinuity of the 403 due to the 407, the MTO considered renumbering Highway 403 in the GTA as Highway 410 to minimize confusion (The 403 would begin in Woodstock and would end at the QEW/407 junction). However this was not received well as many people didn't want the 403 in Mississauga changed to the 410.

Hope that clears some of it up.

 

[nfitz]

That pretty much describes what I described in that same post that you quoted, haha.

Yes ... I was too lazy to quote the next bit of text. That was the original plan ... but then part of 403 and part of 407 would be a toll highway ... I think they did it this way to simplify things.

However, if they really wanted to simplify things, they would have simply renumbered the 403 in Missisauga as 410 ... and I think I saw an MTO document about a decade ago that was suggesting that ... but instead they did this silly renumbering of the QEW between the two 403 legs as QEW/403.

 

[ShonTron]

I think your solution sounds rather confusing and convoluted (probably because I've never heard of half the highways you refer to). A 410 extension all the way is the most straight-forward and simple solution. The simplest solution is usually the best.

So wait, you advocate extending the 410 all the way to Collingwood, but you don't know where Highways 10, 26 and 89 go?

 

[Dan416]

Regarding the extensions of the existing 400-Series Highways, allow me to offer my input.

69/400: Finishing the link to Sudbury will finally create a proper north-south link between Southern Ontario and the rest of Canada.

401: The extension to Detroit (the Windsor-Essex Parkway) is a must and should have been done 50 years ago.

404: A small extension would be nice as it represents a route on the eastern side of Lake Simcoe. It will surely be extended if the Bradford Bypass is approved.

406: Widen the existing un-twinned part, but I'm not sure if an extension is justified.

407: I think it can be extended to the 35/115, especially since it will be tolled and owned by the province.

410: As someone who lives outside the GTA, I can tell you that the 410 is just as much a long-distance freeway as it is as a commuter route. Extending it to Orangeville is a good idea in my opinion as it would help travelers who are traveling to Collingwood, Blue Mountain, Wasaga Beach and other areas. Building it further than that is probably overkill.

17/417: The Trans-Canada Highway should have been built as a freeway across our country. If the US Taxpayers could afford the entire Interstate Highway system, surely Canadians could cough up enough cash for one east-west freeway. Twinning the segment between Sault St. Marie and North Bay might be good for the long-term, but I can't see it getting upgraded much more than that.

420: Extending it to connect with the Thorold tunnel and Highway 406 would take a lot of pressure off the QEW in St. Catherine's and Niagara Falls. Perhaps a further extension might be possible if the Mid-Peninsula Highway is approved.

427: Canada's second busiest highway just seems to come to an abrupt halt north of the 407. A small extension might be justified. It will surely be extended if the Bradford Bypass is approved.

Your suggestions sound pretty reasonable to me.