Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

[TrickyRicky]

You know I have been following this issue for a long time and even 10 years or so on this forum. When I was a younger man I was gung ho on demolition. I have since become agnostic. The reason I am agnostic now is that in the past the demolition was seen as a catalyst for development and urban renewal in the central waterfront. This argument has lost it's force because the development plan for the area in question is already set and under construction. The form and character of the area will be what it is regardless of what we do about the Gardiner. This form is not human in scale or character. It is characterized by long-blocks, tall buildings and sweeping road-ways and open spaces. This is not really a critic, I am not saying all parts of the city should be human scale or character, it's that a highway no longer feels incongruent with the set form of the area.

 

[spider]

Want to save the Expressway?
Easy, just place a couple of bicycle lanes on it and watch the sudden groundswell of UT member approval.

 

[PinkLucy]

Nah, I prefer to bike on it once a year for the Ride for Heart. Even with bike lanes, I don't think I'd want to ride it on a regular basis.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Want to save the Expressway?
Easy, just place a couple of bicycle lanes on it and watch the sudden groundswell of UT member approval.

Are you nuts? That doesn't sound safe at all. And I'd still want to tear it down. The report leaves me with little doubt that demolition is the correct move.

 

[the lemur]

Want to save the Expressway?
Easy, just place a couple of bicycle lanes on it and watch the sudden groundswell of UT member approval.

I wouldn't ride on it in its current condition even if it had separated bike lanes. I avoid driving on it and especially under it for the same reason.

Your cynical assumptions about UTers being blindly in favour of everything to do with bikes and your general pointless anti-bikeness lead me to suspect 'observant' in your signature actually means 'crotchety'.

Which is a shame, since Don Mills is actually a pretty nice place to ride - in parts, at least.

[video=youtube;S9M1m5IYgMg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9M1m5IYgMg[/video]

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Want to save the Expressway?
Easy, just place a couple of bicycle lanes on it and watch the sudden groundswell of UT member approval.

Want to save the expressway?

Demonstrate that spending hundreds of millions of dollars so that only 3% of downtown-bound commuters can get to work 10 minutes faster while greatly harming the public realm is a good investment.

 

[rbt]

Want to save the expressway?

Demonstrate that spending hundreds of millions of dollars so that only 3% of downtown-bound commuters can get to work 10 minutes faster while greatly harming the public realm is a good investment.

It's may actually be worse than that. The ~$300M gap shown doesn't appear to include revenue from selling the excess land (ramps are no longer necessary) and collection of property taxes from development on that land.

$500M might build tight ramps to Dundas, Gerrard, and King/Queen from the DVP which would surely have more of a benefit to travel times than that chunk of Gardiner.

Even for drivers the maintain option is a poor way to spend that money.

 

[ksun]

I honestly don't understand the debate here: Isn't it obvious from the report that the only negative result from removing the thing is 10 more minutes of commute? I don't see anything else.

On the other hand, benefits are plenty whether from an aesthetic or financial perspective. 10 more minutes is really nothing compared to that... what exactly is the fuss?

 

[waltthizzney]

8 Lanes laid out with a street hierarchy would look fine if done right.... Take a look at what is done n Barcelona.

5 lanes in the middle for faster traffic, 2 of these could easily be rapid transit bus lanes. Bike lanes and even patios can be built with greets separating the side street which can handle local traffic and possibly parking. Then another sidewalk with patios on the actual far side of the streets!

links to Barcelona below

http://oi57.tinypic.com/fxqmub.jpg
http://oi58.tinypic.com/x561ea.jpg

 

[ksun]

8 Lanes laid out with a street hierarchy would look fine if done right.... Take a look at what is done n Barcelona.

5 lanes in the middle for faster traffic, 2 of these could easily be rapid transit bus lanes. Bike lanes and even patios can be built with greets separating the side street which can handle local traffic and possibly parking. Then another sidewalk with patios on the actual far side of the streets!

links to Barcelona below

http://oi57.tinypic.com/fxqmub.jpg
http://oi58.tinypic.com/x561ea.jpg

Agree.
Those who argue replacing the Gardiner with a 8 lane Lakeshore really doesn't make the area more accessible and friendly must be crazy.
Without such a giant roof over the head makes all the difference. Crossing university is really nothing。

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22586098

This is a 10 lane street in Pudong, Shanghai, with a very wide median, and it is still much more pleasant than crossing under the Gardiner.

 

[innsertnamehere]

its 4,500 in the peak hour into town, 60k daily trips on the road. (which means 30,000 people use it daily presuming they use it twice a day)

 

[Groovin' Past Twelve]

I wouldn't ride on it in its current condition even if it had separated bike lanes. I avoid driving on it and especially under it for the same reason.

Your cynical assumptions about UTers being blindly in favour of everything to do with bikes and your general pointless anti-bikeness lead me to suspect 'observant' in your signature actually means 'crotchety'.

Which is a shame, since Don Mills is actually a pretty nice place to ride - in parts, at least.

[video=youtube;S9M1m5IYgMg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9M1m5IYgMg[/video]

Not to be too nitpicky, but Brookbanks Park is actually in Parkwoods. Don Mills begins west of the DVP.

I actually live on the ravine. Do you happen to live in the area? I noticed your photo of the DVP underpass on Brookbanks in one of the other threads; plus this video. Have you ever tried walking through the tunnels in the ravine that lead from the eastern section of the DVP to the west (Three Valleys side)? It's amazing to see how different the two sides are. Since the western side is pretty much only accessible by backyards, it is in much better shape. In the summer time there are dozens of ferns.

Thanks for the video, btw.

 

[ssiguy2]

By reading that report it seems to me that they have heavily leaning towards tearing the Gardiner down not only for esthetic reasons but also financial...........Toronto can't afford {or at least is not willing to pay} anything else.

For 95% of Torontonians, tearing down the East Gardiner won't make a hoot of difference in their daily lives but the backlash will be strong and especially when the opposition states they have no alternative for transit and in that they have a point. GO is slow, infrequent, and very expensive so I think Toronto would have an easier time of trying to sell the idea of tearing down the Gardiner by guaranteeing that all day, frequent GO service is available on Lakeshore and that the GO system will be, at a minimum, fare integrated with the TTC BEFORE they begin tearing down the highway. People would still bitch but it would make selling the idea a lot easier and is needed regardless.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

By reading that report it seems to me that they have heavily leaning towards tearing the Gardiner down not only for esthetic reasons but also financial...........Toronto can't afford {or at least is not willing to pay} anything else.

For 95% of Torontonians, tearing down the East Gardiner won't make a hoot of difference in their daily lives but the backlash will be strong and especially when the opposition states they have no alternative for transit and in that they have a point. GO is slow, infrequent, and very expensive so I think Toronto would have an easier time of trying to sell the idea of tearing down the Gardiner by guaranteeing that all day, frequent GO service is available on Lakeshore and that the GO system will be, at a minimum, fare integrated with the TTC BEFORE they begin tearing down the highway. People would still bitch but it would make selling the idea a lot easier and is needed regardless.

When will all day GO be implemented? I figure the soonest we'll see the Gardiner gone is 2017.

 

[doady]

When will all day GO be implemented? I figure the soonest we'll see the Gardiner gone is 2017.

GO already has all day service.