Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

[Silence&Motion]

so university then? and industrial use? there is only 1 industrial customer and that is ridpaths.. and how is bumper to bumper traffic on the road any better than bumper to bumper traffic on both the surface and in the air as in the current situation?

The Gardiner's the main thoroughfare for every delivery truck going in and out of downtown, all the construction vehicles, every truck going in and out of the portlands, etc. It serves many more industrial purposes than just Redpath.

Also, I'd only be in support of keeping the Gardiner if they significantly narrowed Lake Shore (or removed it altogether). As I said, I'd prefer having a near-exclusive pedestrian and cycling environment under the Gardiner to a surface 8-lane road.

Well in that case... it sounds like University Avenue and to a lesser extent Spadina Avenue during rush hour. I've never had a problem walking down either.

My understanding is that the lake shore + gardiner east traffic is greater than University Ave, but if someone has the figures, please share. And Spadina @ Fort York/Bremner is pretty brutal. If that's what we end up with, it wouldn't be much of an improvement.

 

[bobbob911]

Also, I'd only be in support of keeping the Gardiner if they significantly narrowed Lake Shore (or removed it altogether). As I said, I'd prefer having a near-exclusive pedestrian and cycling environment under the Gardiner to a surface 8-lane road.

That's a plan I could potentially get behind (not pedestrian exclusive but more like any other downtown street). The problem is that there's no compelling reason to do so at the moment, from a dollars and cents point of view.

 

[Dandy Horse]

The best-case scenario would for the section near Jarvis to just fall down in the middle of the night, with nobody getting hurt. Then we wont have to hum and haw for another decade and waste our time on such an obvious decision. It shan't be! tear it down.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

we wont have to hum and haw for another decade and waste our time on such an obvious decision. It shan't be! tear it down.

*obvious to anyone who has read the report. This should be the easiest transportation decision of this decade for the city.

 

[TOareaFan]

Funny how the artist didn't think to add the bumper-to-bumper traffic, including belching delivery trucks and greyhound buses.

Sounds like any other street in the city during rush hour.

I think the point being made is that it is an unrealistic representation of what is and will be there. There are, what, 3 cars in the picture. What daylight hours now (never mind when the Gardiner is gone) can you find that level of traffic?

I don't have an opinion on the Gardiner east portion (seldom use it) but it is a sore point for me when "objective" reports are written to study an item and clearly misleading evidence (like the pic discussed) are shown. The image is one that will never be replicated in real life.

 

[RC8]

I think the point being made is that it is an unrealistic representation of what is and will be there. There are, what, 3 cars in the picture. What daylight hours now (never mind when the Gardiner is gone) can you find that level of traffic?

I don't have an opinion on the Gardiner east portion (seldom use it) but it is a sore point for me when "objective" reports are written to study an item and clearly misleading evidence (like the pic discussed) are shown. The image is one that will never be replicated in real life.

Have you seen the sort of non-sense that was used to promote the construction of these beasts in the first place?

The current reports addressing the Gardiner situation are as objective as we've ever accomplished to make a report over the course of human history.

As others have said, this is a very obvious decision to make if you are familiar with the technical aspects of the situation. Tear it down.

 

[kEiThZ]

GO already has all day service.

Not to Scarborough (excepting Lakeshore).

 

[kEiThZ]

Personally no issues with taking it down. But....

This is not going to fly with Scarborough voters. First, there was the fight over the subway. Which they barely got, after being promised an extension for decades. Not, there's a promise of a 20% increase in commute times from today. Reserved especially for drivers from the East. After all, they won't be taking down the Gardiner through the core or the west.

Good luck selling that. This is manna from heaven for Rob Ford types.

Political issues aside, I've always been skeptical of all the claims that this will make the waterfront more accessible. That's marginal at best when only a portion of the Gardiner is coming down and there's a massive rail corridor and rail yard still in the way.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Downtown has enough highways. Build more highways in Scarborough.

Too bad RoFo doesn't give highways the same treatment as subways

 

[doady]

Ya, if Scarborough really wants highway, then the City should cancel all subway and LRT projects in Scarbrorough and use the money to build the a freeway along the lake, and carve up the neighbourhoods of southern Scarborough, just so they can drive a bit easier to downtown Toronto. I would support that 100%.

 

[junior43]

Personally no issues with taking it down. But....

This is not going to fly with Scarborough voters. First, there was the fight over the subway. Which they barely got, after being promised an extension for decades. Not, there's a promise of a 20% increase in commute times from today. Reserved especially for drivers from the East. After all, they won't be taking down the Gardiner through the core or the west.

Good luck selling that. This is manna from heaven for Rob Ford types.

Political issues aside, I've always been skeptical of all the claims that this will make the waterfront more accessible. That's marginal at best when only a portion of the Gardiner is coming down and there's a massive rail corridor and rail yard still in the way.

You've only touched the tip of the iceberg.....

Lets recap:

In the 50's and 60's, the west got the Gardiner and there was talk of a Scarborough expressway. What happened? No expressway for the east end when the car was king and promoted growth.

Then there's the Bloor Danforth. In the west it hits the Mississauga border, in the east? It doesn't make it a third of the way across Scarborough.

Then in the 80's they throw them the SRT - with 'ground breaking' technology. It's been a disaster from the start, riddled with issues, and now its on it's last legs.

Streetcars? Bwahahhahahahahahaa.....We've got 20 yards of the the Bingham loop.

Toronto has basically starved most of Scarborough on transit and infrastructure for 50+ years - but they also expect them to automatically convert to taking transit now - when there is still no plans for anything coming close to high order transit breaching halfway into Scarborough. This is a far larger issue in Scarborough than most realize.

If another right leaning Mayoral candidate doesn't show up soon wanting to save the Gardiner (assuming city council goes ahead with tearing down the Gardiner). Ford could (unbelievably) make a comeback.

 

[doady]

Then there's the Bloor Danforth. In the west it hits the Mississauga border, in the east? It doesn't make it a third of the way across Scarborough.

The length of the Bloor-Danforth Line east of Yonge is greater than the portion west of Yonge. Just sayin'.

Scarborough is probably more the Mississauga of the East than it is the Etobicoke of the East.

 

[junior43]

The length of the Bloor-Danforth Line east of Yonge is greater than the portion west of Yonge. Just sayin'.

Scarborough is probably more the Mississauga of the East than it is the Etobicoke of the East.

The subway hits TO's western limit, and comes nowhere close in the east. Distance doesn't matter, perception does.

If facts and figures actually mattered to voters, Ford wouldn't be our Mayor.

 

[Silence&Motion]

I don't have an opinion on the Gardiner east portion (seldom use it) but it is a sore point for me when "objective" reports are written to study an item and clearly misleading evidence (like the pic discussed) are shown. The image is one that will never be replicated in real life.

Have you seen the sort of non-sense that was used to promote the construction of these beasts in the first place?

Urban planning has got to be one of the most blatantly ideologically-driven "sciences" in the modern world.

That aside, and despite my earlier criticisms of the 8-lane road, I think I would still choose the "remove" option over the others. The economic case is so strong that it outweighs everything else (I can think of much better things to spend the $400 million on). Furthermore, I don't think the "replace" and "improve" options go far enough in reducing the impact even if they weren't cost prohibitive.

 

[superman]

Urban planning has got to be one of the most blatantly ideologically-driven "sciences" in the modern world.

That aside, and despite my earlier criticisms of the 8-lane road, I think I would still choose the "remove" option over the others. The economic case is so strong that it outweighs everything else (I can think of much better things to spend the $400 million on). Furthermore, I don't think the "replace" and "improve" options go far enough in reducing the impact even if they weren't cost prohibitive.

The problem with Toronto's waterfront is that we have an elevated expressway AND a large rail corridor blocking the lake from the rest of the city.

Even if we replace the expressway with a large road, that problem won't be fixed... they should bury the rail corridor or stack the highway on top!