Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

[DSC]

It's interesting to re-read the Gardiner pages on the Waterfront Toronto website. No mention there it was "paused"! http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/explore_projects2/the_wider_waterfront/the_gardiner_expressway

 

[drum118]

It's interesting to re-read the Gardiner pages on the Waterfront Toronto website. No mention there it was "paused"! http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/explore_projects2/the_wider_waterfront/the_gardiner_expressway

It may not say on the site about the "paused", but there has been one with no meetings for over a year for the team and the CLC groups.

By rights, dismantling of it should start in 2015.

This means the rebuilding and the new alinement of Lake Shore along with the new connection for the DVP needs to get underway by 2014.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Lord, those buildings on Michigan trump all Toronto streets by 100 miles! It is just a different scale. We will never be as pretty as those

FYI - comment by Robert Ivy, past Editor in Chief of Architectural Record AND current CEO of AIA, back in 2007:

The big city of 2.6 million (over 5 million in the metro area) rocked into full springtime, with pink cherries and tulips in full sway. The city’s scale exceeded my imaginings. Tall, broad buildings meet the street with the authority of Chicago or even Beijing. A razor-sharp clarity and generous urban sites render the blocks and the structures individually.

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/archive/index.php/t-4059.html?

AoD

 

[balenciaga]

"Six to nine years before dismantelling could commence"........that's bizarre. At those schedules it's little wonder that Toronto's transportation system is the same as it was 40 years ago.

usually for any large project, we have 5 years of discussion, "consultation" and bickering, 5 years of EA, then 6-10 years of actually doing it, then 2-3 years of delay.

It is still beyond my understanding why the 19km Eglinton LRT will take 10 years (or longer if delayed) just to construct. LA's expo line (phase I) is 25km long and took 5.5 years.

 

[LNahid2000]

It is still beyond my understanding why the 19km Eglinton LRT will take 10 years (or longer if delayed) just to construct. LA's expo line (phase I) is 25km long and took 5.5 years.

LA's Expo line did not involve any tunnelling, and a significant length of it operates in an existing right of way. Also, phase 1 is only 12km long.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The Gardiner in Perspective

http://www.planningalliance.ca/node/533

.....

Reviewing the figures from Waterfront Toronto's 2004 study, it would appear that the Gardiner's prominent location and visibility give it a disproportionate place in our collective imagination.

- According to Waterfront Toronto's study, it delivers less than 9% of the people that work in Toronto's downtown - about 28,000 people. This is dwarfed by the number of people that arrive by TTC - 135,000 people - less than the number of people that take local roads - 92,000, and less than the number of people that arrive by GO Transit - 45,000.

- One thing that the 2004 study didn't consider was people that either walk or bike to work. According to the 2006 Census data, 186,305 people live in wards 20, 27 and 28. Of that group, 63,624 people travel to work by means other than cars or transit. Additionally, the recent condo boom has added another 38,288 people since 2006.

.....

The Gardiner Expressway’s giant new repair bill, in context

http://davidtopping.tumblr.com/post/40265949543/the-gardiner-expressways-giant-new-repair-bill-in

 

[TheTigerMaster]

After looking at these numbers, I am far more inclined to support just tearing the structure down and replacing it with a series of local roads, avenues and public transit. There really isn't a justification for spending about $55 million/year to maintain a structure that only 9% of people going into downtown use. And there certainly isn't any justification whatsoever for the enormous cost to build a tunnel for so few people to get downtown.

 

[gweed123]

After looking at these numbers, I am far more inclined to support just tearing the structure down and replacing it with a series of local roads, avenues and public transit. There really isn't a justification for spending about $55 million/year to maintain a structure that only 9% of people going into downtown use. And there certainly isn't any justification whatsoever for the enormous cost to build a tunnel for so few people to get downtown.

I had the same thought when seeing that. It really puts it in perspective. Toronto would be far better off tearing down the central Gardiner and splitting traffic between a new Lake Shore Blvd and a Front/Wellington one-way combo (much in the same way that the DVP connects to Richmond/Adelaide).

Spend that repair money on improving transit.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I had the same thought when seeing that. It really puts it in perspective. Toronto would be far better off tearing down the central Gardiner and splitting traffic between a new Lake Shore Blvd and a Front/Wellington one-way combo (much in the same way that the DVP connects to Richmond/Adelaide).

Spend that repair money on improving transit.

Now the question is whether or not Council has the will to tear down the structure. It may be a pretty tough idea to sell to the public, and would certainly take a whole lot of political capital.

It will be interesting to see what tearing down and splitting traffic between local roads and transit will have on average commute times. Ideally, it should be the same or less. But even under those conditions it would still be a hard sell for the public.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

The Gardiner in Perspective

http://www.planningalliance.ca/node/533

The Gardiner Expressway’s giant new repair bill, in context

http://davidtopping.tumblr.com/post/40265949543/the-gardiner-expressways-giant-new-repair-bill-in

What of deliveries though?

 

[TOareaFan]

What of deliveries though?

Glad to notice I am not the only one looking at those numbers and shaking my head. It would seem to be a study that selected a portion of the people going into the downtown each day and used that selection to say "see, its not that important a road". Yet the anecdotal evidence is that it is full of cars all of the time....how come?

Well, as you point out it, by only measuring the percentage of people who work downtown it excludes a bunch of people that come into downtown but don't "work there". So, students, hospital patients, tourists, delivery trucks, people doing business on behalf of their companies from outside the city, people who live in the city but work outside of the city, special event attendees (sports, shows, conventions), etc. just get left out of the "analysis" leading to the conclusion that it has "a disproportionate place in our collective imagination."

As someone who uses the Gardiner most days it might be expected that I am a fan of preserving the road at all costs. Not at all. As someone who uses it I am well aware of its limitations. That said, I am not going to accept an attempt by someone/some group to try and suggest that it has "a disproportionate place in our collective imagination." It cannot be denied that the road moves a lot of people and goods (in both directions) each and every day. It is worthwhile looking at alternatives to the Gardiner but this sort of dangerous manipulation of statistics can lead to the conclusion that it can just be torn down without consideration of the goods and people that it moves and all will be ok.....it is just not the case.

 

[rbt]

What of deliveries though?

The total number of trucks going into downtown likely need less than 2 lanes (1 lane into the core and 1 lane out): under 1000 trucks per hour.

Anecdotal evidence only based on the visible rush-hour car/truck ratio on Jarvis and that ratio applied to the stats in the chart.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What of deliveries though?

Whether or not you include trucks/deliveries I'd still expect the number of people moved on the Gardiner to be significantly less than that of other routes. But it would be nice to see some numbers on the total amount of vehicles on the Gardiner vs. the amount of people moved on other routes.

 

[sixrings]

Now more then ever if I could get 8 billion in a sale I would sell. 8 billion = DRL.

 

[rbt]

Now more then ever if I could get 8 billion in a sale I would sell. 8 billion = DRL.

Yup. 50 year lease with the requirement the roadway be returned in roughly the same shape it is today. Set the starting toll to a reasonable GO fare (Long Branch to Union?) and cap it for future years to the larger of CPI increases or that years GO fare.

Give 30% to Metrolinx for improving Lake Shore, Richmond Hill, and Stouffville services within the Toronto boundaries. This includes a few extra stops, better integration at Oriole station, and 15 minute all-day frequencies within Toronto contracted by the TTC. If Metrolinx expands a run outside of Toronto, it is no longer a TTC contracted run and billed to the TTC.

I prefer the TTC to contract GO runs over building something with the Waterfront West LRT.


Put the rest of the money into a phase of the DRL that Metrolinx does not intend to fund via their new revenue schemes. The basic DRL should be funded by Metrolinx but Toronto might fund an extension to Eglinton, the western leg, ...