Roads: Keep the Gardiner, fix it, or get rid of it? (2005-2014)

[rbt]

+1

Look at the breakdown of Ottawa's most recent funding for transit vs Toronto's Transit City:

Toronto: $8.15 billion
Federal: $0.3 billion ($114/citizen)
Provincial: $7.85 billion ($3002/citizen)
Municipal: $0 ($0/citizen)

The distribution works out a bit better when you toss in LRT/Subway train orders and the Spadina extension which all happened around the same time.

But yeah, Toronto made out well.

Conversely, much of the provinces revenues come from the Toronto region and the Toronto region is one of the few areas that are actually growing their tax contributions.

If you want to pay for health care for 80 year old boomers in Windsor (city selected at random) in 2030 then best to invest heavily in transportation in the GTA today.

#1 thing I would change about the government is a stronger focus on ROI from infrastructure dollers. Less building random things in random places for temporary voter appeal and more of building specific things in specific places to maximize future government revenue through economic growth. I don't know if Transit City fits that or not (damn you Metrolinx; you promised real business cases) but it is a good target area.


Ottawa isn't a bad place to invest but a major single employer which rapidly changes its mind (federal government leader changes) make it risky. A strongly anti-Ottawa federal government could kill the city by redistributing government jobs; perhaps under the guise of lower costs through telecommutting?

The real complaint is that the National Capital Commission isn't kicking in funds. I would really have liked to see them step forward to fund a station or two with integrated office complexes, or a spur line to Gatineau funded by property value increases. Improved Ottawa transit will directly impact the value of their land and they have a ton of it.

 

[rbt]

1. The Gardiner serves the needs of 905 drivers who want the right to drive to or through downtown for free. The argument for not tearing it down begins and ends with commuters from outside the city.

Incorrect. The Gardiner serves the needs of 416 businesses which pay Toronto property taxes who want to hire employees which live outside of Toronto and have them work in an office building downtown.

If you decrease transportation capacity to downtown, you may find demand for Toronto office space downtown suddenly decreases.

The surface option between Jarvis and DVP was a good compromise (capacity retained, maintenance costs reduced) but don't be confused; Gardiner exists and is paid for by 416 businesses.

 

[ssiguy2]

Toronto gets a disproportionate amount of Queen's Park largess. Some of that is due to it's size and some due to being the capitol and hence government jobs and agencies all all the associated consultants and agencies that live off the public purpose. Far enough but what in god's name makes Toronto feel it shouldn't pay for it's own infrastructure? This dumb idea that they should let Queen's Park foot the bill for all it's transportation needs is what has left Toronto in the situation it is in today............crumbling roads and a woefully overburdened transit system that hasn't seen any real growth in 40 years.

I still think one of the worse things McGuinty ever did was offer Toronto $8 billion for TC without first demanding Toronto cough up a few billion of their own.

 

[nfitz]

Toronto gets a disproportionate amount of Queen's Park largess.

If your going to start your statement with completely absurd things that everyone knows isn't true, why will anyone take you seriously?

Toronto has been screwed left, right, and centre by the feds and the province, on per capita spending in many areas. And at the same time, per capita tax collection is much higher than average.

 

[pman]

Incorrect. The Gardiner serves the needs of 416 businesses which pay Toronto property taxes who want to hire employees which live outside of Toronto and have them work in an office building downtown.

If you decrease transportation capacity to downtown, you may find demand for Toronto office space downtown suddenly decreases.

The surface option between Jarvis and DVP was a good compromise (capacity retained, maintenance costs reduced) but don't be confused; Gardiner exists and is paid for by 416 businesses.

That's an interesting point. It would certainly have been true in 1995, but I wonder if downtown employment still depends on the ability of commuters to drive downtown. I've read some anecdotal material suggesting that recent class A building activity in downtown has been driven by the condo boom and the resulting supply of workers living nearby. Do you know if any hard data on the factors driving employers to locate downtown?

Assuming Toronto taxpayers want to encourage people who work downtown to live in places like Oakville and Oshawa, I wonder if significantly enhanced GO service centered on a renovated Union Station, plus DLR construction in something faster than geological time, might substitute for the current car-centered mode while protecting downtown employment.

 

[ssiguy2]

Toronto can do whatever the hell it wants {which is ussually very little} but just don't expect the people outside of Toronto to pay for it.

This maybe a hard concept for some on this forum but the reality is that most Ontarians couldn't give a rat's ass what Toronto does with the Gardiner. I know Toronto believes that what effects Toronto is top news throughout the province but the people of Cornwall, Cobalt, and Chatham do not talk about Toronto's transit or the Gardiner around the dinner table everynight. When it comes to civic matters they will discuss how THEY will solve their munipalities problems not how SOMEONE ELSE will solve their problems for them. The Gardiner is Toronto's problem and just because they have ignored the problem, didn't have a firm policy in place to what to do with the Gardiner BEFORE they allowed all the development around it, didn't maintain the road properly, didn't expand their transit to eleviate the traffic on it, choose not to use it as a revenue option for decades, and decided it could live with an eyesore rather than make firm policy that required vision and political fortitude is NOT anyone else's problem but Toronto's.

The Gardiner, regardless of what they do with it, is a Toronto problem. Poor planning on Toronto's part does not constitute an emergency on Ontario's part. Even contemplating making the rest of Ontarians pay for Toronto's transportation woes requires an incredible gaul and is the height of irresponsibility.

 

[ttk77]

Toronto can do whatever the hell it wants {which is ussually very little} but just don't expect the people outside of Toronto to pay for it.

This maybe a hard concept for some on this forum but the reality is that most Ontarians couldn't give a rat's ass what Toronto does with the Gardiner. I know Toronto believes that what effects Toronto is top news throughout the province but the people of Cornwall, Cobalt, and Chatham do not talk about Toronto's transit or the Gardiner around the dinner table everynight. When it comes to civic matters they will discuss how THEY will solve their munipalities problems not how SOMEONE ELSE will solve their problems for them. The Gardiner is Toronto's problem and just because they have ignored the problem, didn't have a firm policy in place to what to do with the Gardiner BEFORE they allowed all the development around it, didn't maintain the road properly, didn't expand their transit to eleviate the traffic on it, choose not to use it as a revenue option for decades, and decided it could live with an eyesore rather than make firm policy that required vision and political fortitude is NOT anyone else's problem but Toronto's.

The Gardiner, regardless of what they do with it, is a Toronto problem. Poor planning on Toronto's part does not constitute an emergency on Ontario's part. Even contemplating making the rest of Ontarians pay for Toronto's transportation woes requires an incredible gaul and is the height of irresponsibility.

That may be the optics from a suburban standpoint, but it doesn't take into consideration that Toronto pays out far more to the feds and province in tax dollars than it gets back in provided services. The 8 billion we received for transit expansion is a step in the right direction, but I doubt it even comes close to making up for decades of federal/provincial tax inequality.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Make it a toll road for sure to reduce congestion on it and pay for it's upkeep. In conjunction with a beefed up Lakeshore Line with park and ride.

 

[pman]

Toronto can do whatever the hell it wants {which is ussually very little} but just don't expect the people outside of Toronto to pay for it.

This maybe a hard concept for some on this forum but the reality is that most Ontarians couldn't give a rat's ass what Toronto does with the Gardiner. I know Toronto believes that what effects Toronto is top news throughout the province but the people of Cornwall, Cobalt, and Chatham do not talk about Toronto's transit or the Gardiner around the dinner table everynight. When it comes to civic matters they will discuss how THEY will solve their munipalities problems not how SOMEONE ELSE will solve their problems for them. The Gardiner is Toronto's problem and just because they have ignored the problem, didn't have a firm policy in place to what to do with the Gardiner BEFORE they allowed all the development around it, didn't maintain the road properly, didn't expand their transit to eleviate the traffic on it, choose not to use it as a revenue option for decades, and decided it could live with an eyesore rather than make firm policy that required vision and political fortitude is NOT anyone else's problem but Toronto's.

The Gardiner, regardless of what they do with it, is a Toronto problem. Poor planning on Toronto's part does not constitute an emergency on Ontario's part. Even contemplating making the rest of Ontarians pay for Toronto's transportation woes requires an incredible gaul and is the height of irresponsibility.

"Incredible gaul..." Are you thinking Charles de Gaulle or do you have someone more like Obelix in mind?

It's clear you both hate Toronto and live in a fantasy land where neither facts (for example who pays the bills in this province) nor spelling matter. But surely it's not unreasonable for people on site devoted to Toronto issues to, you know, post about Toronto issues.

 

[pman]

My last sentence didn't make it but I was going to add that it's entirely reasonable for the people of Toronto to look for infrastructure funding from higher-level governments given the large net contribution we make to Ontario and Canada.

 

[Rainforest]

The Gardiner, regardless of what they do with it, is a Toronto problem. Poor planning on Toronto's part does not constitute an emergency on Ontario's part. Even contemplating making the rest of Ontarians pay for Toronto's transportation woes requires an incredible gaul and is the height of irresponsibility.

Ontario laws explicitly prevent Toronto and other municipalities from collecting any local income taxes or sales taxes. That limits the city's tax base.

If the province grants Toronto the right to charge some local income surtax or sales tax, then it can say that Toronto can fend for itself.

 

[gweed123]

I did a slight update to the map that Dunkalunk posted on here a while ago. One of the things that I wanted to highlight was the 'mirrorness' of the Gardiner coming in from the west, and the DVP from the east.

The Richmond-Adelaide setup works relatively well for funnelling the DVP into downtown from the east. It stands to reason that a similar scenario would work reasonably well in the west as well.

 

[spider]

Originally Posted by ssiguy2

Toronto can do whatever the hell it wants {which is ussually very little} but just don't expect the people outside of Toronto to pay for it.

This maybe a hard concept for some on this forum but the reality is that most Ontarians couldn't give a rat's ass what Toronto does with the Gardiner. I know Toronto believes that what effects Toronto is top news throughout the province but the people of Cornwall, Cobalt, and Chatham do not talk about Toronto's transit or the Gardiner around the dinner table everynight. When it comes to civic matters they will discuss how THEY will solve their munipalities problems not how SOMEONE ELSE will solve their problems for them. The Gardiner is Toronto's problem and just because they have ignored the problem, didn't have a firm policy in place to what to do with the Gardiner BEFORE they allowed all the development around it, didn't maintain the road properly, didn't expand their transit to eleviate the traffic on it, choose not to use it as a revenue option for decades, and decided it could live with an eyesore rather than make firm policy that required vision and political fortitude is NOT anyone else's problem but Toronto's.

The Gardiner, regardless of what they do with it, is a Toronto problem. Poor planning on Toronto's part does not constitute an emergency on Ontario's part. Even contemplating making the rest of Ontarians pay for Toronto's transportation woes requires an incredible gaul and is the height of irresponsibility.

That may be the optics from a suburban standpoint, but it doesn't take into consideration that Toronto pays out far more to the feds and province in tax dollars than it gets back in provided services. The 8 billion we received for transit expansion is a step in the right direction, but I doubt it even comes close to making up for decades of federal/provincial tax inequality.

Cornwall, Cobalt and Chatham must be delighted to be described as mere "suburbs" of the mighty TORONTO.

 

[rbt]

This maybe a hard concept for some on this forum but the reality is that most Ontarians couldn't give a rat's ass what Toronto does with the Gardiner.

No, infrastructure problems are an Ontario wide problem. If provincial dollars were spent in the same place as they were collected, then yes, nobody outside of Toronto would care but that isn't the case.

Downtown Toronto businesses in particular pay taxes way way above what downtown Toronto receives, and that's after you remove firms that take revenues from all around the world like the banks.


Simply put, if Toronto falters, suddenly a lot of locations in Ontario are going to find their own funding for schools and healthcare get slashed (these are the biggest budget items by far) or paying a large tax increase. That's what makes it an Ontario wide problem; if you rely on Toronto money to keep your standard of living high, then Toronto problems are your problems.

Ontarian's might not care but the people making budgets for services they use do.

 

[dunkalunk]

I did a slight update to the map that Dunkalunk posted on here a while ago. One of the things that I wanted to highlight was the 'mirrorness' of the Gardiner coming in from the west, and the DVP from the east.

The Richmond-Adelaide setup works relatively well for funnelling the DVP into downtown from the east. It stands to reason that a similar scenario would work reasonably well in the west as well.

View attachment 9897

Yup, that's pretty much it, although I would keep Wellington Street completely separate from Clarence Square because of complications in movement caused by running Wellington against the existing one-way traffic.

The space immediately east of Clarence Square could then be used for an additional parking garage with direct access to the DRL. I imagine something that is 6 stories above grade and 3 below would be appropriate. Gardiner Traffic would turn left on Spadina and enter the garage from Clarence Square and exit onto Wellington Street. There would also be some opportunity to make the ground floor retail and the edges of the 2nd to 4th floors office space. The building's core would continue to be the parking structure.