Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[Dichotomy]

So, we're comparing Toronto to Detroit? Wow. Just wow. And you think all of Detroit's woes are because of freeways and General Motors?
First of all, Chrysler and Ford are there also, no? Many of Detroit's problems have more to do with the fact that they didn't attract any new industry, that Washington was (and continues to be) more enamored with the NY-Cali votes then the 'fly-over' states and the 'white flight.' There is a can of worms I am sure that we don't want to open.
Most American cities, especially the olders ones are crime-ridden. There are lots of reasons, but I suppose we can blame it all on cars.

1.2%. Such a small, little number. I wonder what kind of numbers were thrown around in 1971 when the Allen was stopped. And now just look at what a lovely neighborhood that area has become. Our pride and joy! Even with a subway up the middle, the neighborhood is still a joke to get in or out of.

In fact, if we want to compare us to Detroit, why not? What new industry has 416 attracted in the past 15 years? Other than condos, what else is being built? The Bay-Adelaide tower has taken 15 years. Who is hiring in this city? Queen's Park? City Hall?

Sigh. We are not talking about building a NEW expressway (God knows!), but preserving what little we have.

But lost in all this shuffle is the train tracks! What about them? How is removing the Gardiner going to improve the view or pedestrian traffic?

Does anybody on this Board actually walk around downtown, or am I talking to armchair critics?

 

[allabootmatt]

So, we're comparing Toronto to Detroit? Wow. Just wow. And you think all of Detroit's woes are because of freeways and General Motors?

Does anybody on this Board actually walk around downtown, or am I talking to armchair critics?

1. Nope. But the destruction of stable neighbourhoods that building those freeways entailed, and the creation of a cars-at-all-costs culture that their existence guaranteed, meant that there was much less to stand between Detroit and a spectacular decline. Cities need strong neighbourhoods, and people who care deeply about the urban fabric, in order to withstand negative pressures. Freeway construction in Detroit, as in countless other American cities, helped remove those crucial bulwarks. Thus when things got bad for other reasons (economic decline, racial tensions) a total collapse came easily.

2. I certainly walk around downtown. I also drive sometimes. In fact, in my job I often have to go from my office (Front St.) to the north-east of the city, for which the DVP-Gardiner connection is extremely convenient. But I still want to see it come down, because I think a vibrant, beautiful waterfront is more important than the expediency of my commute.

 

[urbanboom]

I certainly walk around downtown. I also drive sometimes. In fact, in my job I often have to go from my office (Front St.) to the north-east of the city, for which the DVP-Gardiner connection is extremely convenient. But I still want to see it come down, because I think a vibrant, beautiful waterfront is more important than the expediency of my commute.

And that is why there is hope for us yet

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Here is a much better example of expressway beautification, from Shanghai - posted in Spacing Wire:

http://spacing.ca/wire/2008/07/17/highway-lessons-from-shanghai/#comments

AoD

 

[Dichotomy]

1. Nope. But the destruction of stable neighbourhoods that building those freeways entailed, and the creation of a cars-at-all-costs culture that their existence guaranteed, meant that there was much less to stand between Detroit and a spectacular decline. Cities need strong neighbourhoods, and people who care deeply about the urban fabric, in order to withstand negative pressures. Freeway construction in Detroit, as in countless other American cities, helped remove those crucial bulwarks. Thus when things got bad for other reasons (economic decline, racial tensions) a total collapse came easily.

2. I certainly walk around downtown. I also drive sometimes. In fact, in my job I often have to go from my office (Front St.) to the north-east of the city, for which the DVP-Gardiner connection is extremely convenient. But I still want to see it come down, because I think a vibrant, beautiful waterfront is more important than the expediency of my commute.

Is that to join the vibrant, beautiful waterfront that we already have in Sunnyside or south Kipling? Just curious because I don't see you out there in January. Or even March, for that matter.
In fact, Cherry Beach is a great place for us hardy dog walkers in January. Not too many pretty bicycles down there then either. Pity that.

So the money that we're going to save by tearing down the Gardiner and then fixing up the portlands (and getting rid of all those awful, dirty portland jobs - ewww! blue collar!) is going to be spent on wide, new avenues throughout the Donlands. And which way is the stench from the sewage plant at Leslie St. going to go? Are we all to go swimming in the Don river in a few years? Tssk, tsk, can't move those beavers out of there. too bad they are hacking down all the trees.

The koolaid at City Hall must be good.

What about Balfour Park? I guess when a few of those mansion slide into the creek, the city will think about fixing that park up again.

Look, I know I am coming off as a tad negative, but I have been researching and thinking about this for quite a few years. I apologise for my 'enthusiasm,' but I may be new on this site, but not on others.

I would love for an Algonquin along the Eastern gap, but this is a city and it has to work for EVERYONE, not just retired school teachers along Queen's Quay.

 

[adma]

Next thing you know, Dichotomy's gonna suggest that it isn't just Silly Hall that's dysfunctional, the building itself is dysfunctional--two crescents and a flying saucer, a dated, obsolete 60s period piece, woefully functionally inadequate and meriting a thorough rebuild to bring it up to present-day standards, because it's unworthy of the city...

 

[adma]

I would love for an Algonquin along the Eastern gap, but this is a city and it has to work for EVERYONE, not just retired school teachers along Queen's Quay.

Okay, then, let's throw out all the coloureds, then. White supremacists are part of "EVERYONE", y'know

 

[Dichotomy]

Next thing you know, Dichotomy's gonna suggest that it isn't just Silly Hall that's dysfunctional, the building itself is dysfunctional--two crescents and a flying saucer, a dated, obsolete 60s period piece, woefully functionally inadequate and meriting a thorough rebuild to bring it up to present-day standards, because it's unworthy of the city...

.....and you have a point? Are you insinuating I don't like modern architecture? Sorry. Luv it. I'd sooner see the old city hall torn down before the new one.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Funny you should mention Sunnyside - given your expertise in Toronto history, mind telling me when the decline of that stretch of waterfront really started, and what was the cause?

AoD

 

[TKTKTK]

Best. Thread. Ever.

 

[adma]

.....and you have a point? Are you insinuating I don't like modern architecture? Sorry. Luv it. I'd sooner see the old city hall torn down before the new one.

Subsequently reading other posts of yours, I realize the error of my initial assumption.

However, if you're seriously suggesting that Old City Hall should ideally have been torn down, let me tell you this: you be asking for the tar and feathers. And not just from "retired school teachers along Queen's Quay".

 

[Dichotomy]

Subsequently reading other posts of yours, I realize the error of my initial assumption.

However, if you're seriously suggesting that Old City Hall should ideally have been torn down, let me tell you this: you be asking for the tar and feathers. And not just from "retired school teachers along Queen's Quay".

Can't take a joke? I spent the night there once...thoroughly enjoyable accomodation, I might add.

 

[Dichotomy]

Funny you should mention Sunnyside - given your expertise in Toronto history, mind telling me when the decline of that stretch of waterfront really started, and what was the cause?

AoD

One word: bird poop. Okay, that's two.

I guess the filth gushing out of the Humber River doesn't help. I drove my boat up there once, almost to Bloor. Looks nice enough, but wouldn't want to swim in that ..or even fall into it. The overflow from last week's storm kinda set the area back, too.

Look, the point is: this city is bankrupt. There is no money to maintain what we have. I'd love a promenade from Kipling to Bluffer's Park, but we are broke.

 

[smuncky]

look at how maintained that structure is. i wouldn't want to go near the underbelly of the gardiner.

 

[Glen]

Funny you should mention Sunnyside - given your expertise in Toronto history, mind telling me when the decline of that stretch of waterfront really started, and what was the cause?

AoD

Fire.