Dan416
Senior Member
I'm for tolls if everyone pays for them. Tolling non-Toronto residents just smacks of typical small-minded Torontonian thinking.
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k10ery
Senior Member
Yeah well the Wynne government is obviously not going to pass a law that calls for tolls on the Gardiner "except for Toronto residents" so don't worry about it.
Honestly, are all our politicians stupid, or do they just assume we are? Regardless, our politics is completely broken. (And Pasternak isn't the worst of them, not even close!)
Filip
Senior Member
I fully support tolling non-residents to use the Gardiner, but specifically only the Gardiner because it has this amazing and convenient rapid transit line stretching all along its length!
I would also insist that toll cameras are set up on exits to Lake Shore Blvd so that if they think they can 'beat' the system, they'll get smacked.
Either the province uploads the Gardiner and DVP (and the costs can be shared by actual users of the roads) or we smack tolls on non-residents. Simple.
I would also insist that toll cameras are set up on exits to Lake Shore Blvd so that if they think they can 'beat' the system, they'll get smacked.
Either the province uploads the Gardiner and DVP (and the costs can be shared by actual users of the roads) or we smack tolls on non-residents. Simple.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
JasonParis
Moderator
Not saying I agree, but the Gardiner is a city road, not MTO so it wouldn't really be Wynne's choice.
Riverdale Rink Rat
Senior Member
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I kind of like the arguments put forward so far, as they remind me of the halcyon days of Mayor Ford, when 'somebody else' would pay for everything.
I'm not against tolling the DVP and Gardiner, but that's kind of not in the City's hands (which, of course, is why Pasternak et al are proposing it, as someone else would have to make the actual decision.)
Why not have a toll to pay for the construction, that disappears after the construction is fully paid off? Yeah, I don't think it would fly, either.
cplchanb
Senior Member
Not as simple as the utopian dream suggests. Something tells me that it is going to be overly complex to differentiate between 416 and non 416 whether by our doing or not. Just have it distance based from the start of DVP down. If we are going to collaborate together as 1 GTA the first thing is to drop the whole 416/905 BS and pay together.
Riverdale Rink Rat
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By the way, the 'inevitable' win of the hybrid option will be due to Mayor Tory throwing his weight behind it, but also characters like Pasternak, whose riding probably has literally zero voters that use the eastern Gardiner. They would, however, use the LDL as a staycation tourist, for whom the cafés and kayaking and Lake Ontario Park would be a huge win and 100% better without an elevated expressway.
I'm sure, though, he'll vote for car-friendly, damn the expense or utility.
I'm sure, though, he'll vote for car-friendly, damn the expense or utility.
Filip
Senior Member
License plates are tied to a residential address.. Have the toll system ding the MTO database for 'city'.
Either way, if the city wanted to, they could do it. The Gardiner is owned and maintained by the City of Toronto.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Since commercial vehicles have different plates than private automobiles, they would be able to continue to use the Gardiner & Parkway for "free".
Filip
Senior Member
Precisely. It's about being 'fair'.
k10ery
Senior Member
Not so. Read the City of Toronto Act.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Queen's Park uploading the Gardiner would be an outrage!
Even the idea of such a thing is beyond offensive. Why exactly should Toronto get it's roads uploaded while the rest of the province wouldn't enjoy the same benefit?
I know Torontonians like to think they are incredibly hard done by, everyone owes them a living, and what is good for Toronto must be good for the other 11 million who live in the province but, wait for it, that is categorical crap.
When the roads gotten downloaded in the 1990s Toronto got away almost scot-free. Relatively Toronto got very few roads downloaded and considering it's size it got away easier than anywhere else in the province by a long shot. Middlesex county , with just 70,000 people at the time, got huge amounts downloaded including all of Highway #2,#81,and #22. That is just one example where one county got over 100km of very busy road downloaded to be paid for by just 70,000 people.
The City of London got an entire freeway downloaded..........the Weinge Expressway which carries over 40,000 vehicles a day. Are Torontonians willing to have their taxes go thru the roof in order to have all the other roads in the province uploaded like they want the Gardiner to be?...............ya, I thought not.
Toronto is already getting huge transportation funds that the other Ontario cities could only dream about. They are not paying one nickel for their $5 billion Eglinton Line and are paying a cent for the huge GO expansion either. All this because Torontonians see themselves as more important the rest of the province, feel they should get exactly what they want when they want it, and they can't seem to get their heads around the idea that you actually may have to pay for your own infrastructure.
If Queen's Park were to even add one penny of the cost of downloading the Gardiner {or DVP for that matter} it would be an incredible insult and the height of favouritism of Toronto over the other 80% of the population. It would reinforce what everyone outside the city, and especially the GTA, already believe...........that Wynne is the Premier of Toronto and not Ontario.
I think if you see the province uploading either road you will see the rise of a VERY serious attempt to split up the province. Toronto is already getting a grotesque and vastly disprorportionate amount of transportation and transit infrastructure and giving them more because they refuse to upkeep their own roads may be the straw that broke the camel's back for the rest of Ontarians.
If Wynne shows anymore favoritism toward Toronto I think you will find London and Kingston becoming provincial capitols within a decade. Hyperbole?........perhaps but there will come a point where the rest of Ontarians see little advantage in being a province where they see little advantage.
Even the idea of such a thing is beyond offensive. Why exactly should Toronto get it's roads uploaded while the rest of the province wouldn't enjoy the same benefit?
I know Torontonians like to think they are incredibly hard done by, everyone owes them a living, and what is good for Toronto must be good for the other 11 million who live in the province but, wait for it, that is categorical crap.
When the roads gotten downloaded in the 1990s Toronto got away almost scot-free. Relatively Toronto got very few roads downloaded and considering it's size it got away easier than anywhere else in the province by a long shot. Middlesex county , with just 70,000 people at the time, got huge amounts downloaded including all of Highway #2,#81,and #22. That is just one example where one county got over 100km of very busy road downloaded to be paid for by just 70,000 people.
The City of London got an entire freeway downloaded..........the Weinge Expressway which carries over 40,000 vehicles a day. Are Torontonians willing to have their taxes go thru the roof in order to have all the other roads in the province uploaded like they want the Gardiner to be?...............ya, I thought not.
Toronto is already getting huge transportation funds that the other Ontario cities could only dream about. They are not paying one nickel for their $5 billion Eglinton Line and are paying a cent for the huge GO expansion either. All this because Torontonians see themselves as more important the rest of the province, feel they should get exactly what they want when they want it, and they can't seem to get their heads around the idea that you actually may have to pay for your own infrastructure.
If Queen's Park were to even add one penny of the cost of downloading the Gardiner {or DVP for that matter} it would be an incredible insult and the height of favouritism of Toronto over the other 80% of the population. It would reinforce what everyone outside the city, and especially the GTA, already believe...........that Wynne is the Premier of Toronto and not Ontario.
I think if you see the province uploading either road you will see the rise of a VERY serious attempt to split up the province. Toronto is already getting a grotesque and vastly disprorportionate amount of transportation and transit infrastructure and giving them more because they refuse to upkeep their own roads may be the straw that broke the camel's back for the rest of Ontarians.
If Wynne shows anymore favoritism toward Toronto I think you will find London and Kingston becoming provincial capitols within a decade. Hyperbole?........perhaps but there will come a point where the rest of Ontarians see little advantage in being a province where they see little advantage.
Filip
Senior Member
Ssguy... Usually I agree with you but you have no idea what you're talking about. 400-series highways are owned and maintained by the MTO, not individual municipalities.
JasonParis
Moderator
Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but were tolls not part of the package of options given to the city to raise its own revenues ~2008? Along with vehicle registration taxes, alcohol taxes, land transfer, etc.?