Roads: Gardiner Expressway

[the lemur]

License plates are tied to a residential address.. Have the toll system ding the MTO database for 'city'.

Either way, if the city wanted to, they could do it. The Gardiner is owned and maintained by the City of Toronto.

You'd need a plate recognition tech and/or transponder system for local drivers (one that works better than the 407, of course), which adds a layer of expense. Tolls that discriminate by driver origin usually result in drivers trying to evade them by either registering their vehicle in the non-tolled area or avoiding the tolled road entirely, to the detriment of traffic on nearby roads.

 

[nfitz]

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but were tolls not part of the package of options given to the city to raise its own revenues ~2008? Along with vehicle registration taxes, alcohol taxes, land transfer, etc.?

The City of Toronto act says (Section 41) that says that city can't toll a highway unless the province agrees to the specific proposal for the specific highway.

 

[k10ery]

You'd need a plate recognition tech and/or transponder system for local drivers (one that works better than the 407, of course), which adds a layer of expense. Tolls that discriminate by driver origin usually result in drivers trying to evade them by either registering their vehicle in the non-tolled area or avoiding the tolled road entirely, to the detriment of traffic on nearby roads.

People, this is a side show. If the Gardiner were tolled, then everybody would pay, and Toronto could use the revenue to reduce residents' property taxes. So the end result would be that non-residents only pay, but it would be easy to implement and non-discriminatory in how it worked. That's how you toll a local highway, if you want to do it.

But Pasternak doesn't want that. He wants to make a stink. So he comes up with this cockamamie scheme about tolling non-residents. Even if it were possible, the province would never allow it to happen, and they have the legal power.

I suppose it could be worse. If it wasn't this nonsense, he'd be talking about QuAIA.

 

[ssiguy2]

Ssguy... Usually I agree with you but you have no idea what you're talking about. 400-series highways are owned and maintained by the MTO, not individual municipalities.

Where did I say anything about the 400 series highways? I didn't say anything about them as they are still MTO maintained roads. I am talking about the huge amount of roadway downloaded in the 1990s such as the ones I mentioned in Middlesex.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ardiner-would-be-world-class/article24514204/

Y'all will be shocked to know that a gentleman named Jeff Kenworthy, a professor in sustainable cities, Curtin University, Perth, Western Australia, who is the co-author of The End of Automobile Dependence: How Cities are Moving Beyond Car-Based Planning, seems to be favour the removal option.

 

[jcam]

Can some councillor please just give everyone an info-graphic to show how much of their property taxes goes to paying for roads, so both drivers and non-drivers alike can see what this "hidden" cost ACTUALLY is. Lets get people thinking apples to apples on taxes supporting roads vs. transit.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Can we stop with the tolling circus?

Apparently City Council went through the exercise on what would need to be done to toll highways during Miller's tenure and it was shown to be hugely expensive and completely impractical.

Despite the usual City Council circus around important debates, I believe this will actually come down to a vote between the two options presented and one will be started after the vote is taken. Hopelessly optimistic, to be sure, but that seems to be the prevailing winds (and the fact that something has to be done before someone gets killed.)

The toll trolls:

John Campbell, given that he's Ward 4 Councillor, has a slightly-higher-than-negligible chance someone from his riding would use the eastern Gardiner more than once a year, as opposed to Pasternak, whose riding's drivers have a negligible chance.

I propose that any Councillor wanting to start a debate on tolls has to pick the road in their own riding that should be tolled. For Campbell I propose Eglinton (to help pay for the Crosstown), and for Pasternak, Finch and Allen Road.

Conversely, they could petition Queen's Park to toll the 401 and 427 at the same time as they toll the Gardiner.

 

[k10ery]

Apparently City Council went through the exercise on what would need to be done to toll highways during Miller's tenure and it was shown to be hugely expensive and completely impractical.

Dude, what are you talking about?

We should start levying tolls on the Gardiner, 401, DVP, and 427 immediately. If the average toll was something reasonable, say $5 per trip, it would raise something like a billion dollars annually. (That figure is a wild guess, but it's roughly correct I am sure.)

Revenue problem solved. Traffic congestion reduced. Users pay for road infrastructure which is fair. It is the only sensible way.

It would be very cheap to run this system. Hundreds of cities do it already.

The only thing missing is politicians with a backbone. If they can't implement full tolls on our highways, they should at least put a HOT lane on each one of those highways immediately. (All the 401 express lanes could become HOT lanes.)

Intelligent guys like you should not be dismissing the tolling option. The very opposite. Whose kool aid are you drinking?

 

[cplchanb]

Dude, what are you talking about?

We should start levying tolls on the Gardiner, 401, DVP, and 427 immediately. If the average toll was something reasonable, say $5 per trip, it would raise something like a billion dollars annually. (That figure is a wild guess, but it's roughly correct I am sure.)

Revenue problem solved. Traffic congestion reduced. Users pay for road infrastructure which is fair. It is the only sensible way.

It would be very cheap to run this system. Hundreds of cities do it already.

The only thing missing is politicians with a backbone. If they can't implement full tolls on our highways, they should at least put a HOT lane on each one of those highways immediately. (All the 401 express lanes could become HOT lanes.)

Intelligent guys like you should not be dismissing the tolling option. The very opposite. Whose kool aid are you drinking?

Agreed, most of our problems have been caused by either a lack of spines in our "friendly neighbourhood" politicians or politicians with severe scoliosis of their spines because they are making ridiculous decisions to win cheap votes and divide council, like our friend who recently suggested tolling only non 416ers

 

[Electrify]

Instead of doing work I am supposed to do on my day off, I want to highlight my thoughts, both pro and con, about Gardiner removal:

PRO

A boulevard likely could meet capacity
The fact of the matter is that this is a surprisingly underused piece of infrastructure, and a large avenue could likely handle the traffic volumes placed on it.

Money saved
$200 million per year to keep such an underused stretch of road is a bit of a waste, when it can be used for so many other infrastructure purposes. Road resurfacing, bus lanes, THCH housing, rail transit expansion, etc.

Transit seems to be adequate
Likely the reason why it is used so little is because there is enough transit to divert demand from the highway. We have the subway and relatively frequent GO trains moving people providing service into lower downtown. And during rush hour, GO trains also run into northern inner and middle suburbs as well.

CON

Do network benefits outweigh demand?
Yes an avenue could likely handle demand, however, Toronto planners and amateur planners seem to have an obsession of fitting demand and capacity perfectly. While we should attempt to meet travel demand with adequate transport infrastructure, it will not always fit perfectly and neatly along every stretch of a corridor. There are rural stretches of the 401 which are likely overbuilt, are we dismantling it because of this? Network plays just as important a role as meeting demand. Yes this stretch of highway is underused, but it does play a role in creating a networked ring road around the city. Most cities which have taken down stretches of highways had several highways nearby, so the effects on the network were negligible.

Transit seems to be adequate... for now
Transit seems to be getting the job done, but it is no question that it is bursting at the seems. Even with more frequent service on the GO Lakeshore and Markham lines, the Yonge line continues to be bursting at the seems, and will likely continue to do so with all the construction taking place around its stations. The Richmond Hill GO line is not going to get all day service, which is the route which follows the affected corridor the closest. Toronto is fast growing city, and we need all the infrastructure we can get.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Dude, what are you talking about?

We should start levying tolls on the Gardiner, 401, DVP, and 427 immediately. If the average toll was something reasonable, say $5 per trip, it would raise something like a billion dollars annually. (That figure is a wild guess, but it's roughly correct I am sure.)

Revenue problem solved. Traffic congestion reduced. Users pay for road infrastructure which is fair. It is the only sensible way.

It would be very cheap to run this system. Hundreds of cities do it already.

The only thing missing is politicians with a backbone. If they can't implement full tolls on our highways, they should at least put a HOT lane on each one of those highways immediately. (All the 401 express lanes could become HOT lanes.)

Intelligent guys like you should not be dismissing the tolling option. The very opposite. Whose kool aid are you drinking?

k10, I'd be happy if they tolled roads. The City of Toronto did a study (Clllr Carroll referenced it on Twitter) when they were granted the ability to generate new revenue, and they rejected the tolling option for the reasons specified.

Your chances of getting Queen's Park to toll any or all of the above roads is zero. If you want to start a lobbying effort to that effect, go nuts, but think of how difficult it has been for the 'single transferable vote' lobbyists to get Queen's Park to deal with a costless (to Ontario), practical, and well-liked initiative that won't affect their personal ability to get re-elected.

Personally, I think your idea of tolling the express lanes of the 401/404 is a great idea. I won't live long enough to see it implemented.

 

[muller877]

Dude, what are you talking about?

We should start levying tolls on the Gardiner, 401, DVP, and 427 immediately. If the average toll was something reasonable, say $5 per trip, it would raise something like a billion dollars annually. (That figure is a wild guess, but it's roughly correct I am sure.)

Revenue problem solved. Traffic congestion reduced. Users pay for road infrastructure which is fair. It is the only sensible way.

It would be very cheap to run this system. Hundreds of cities do it already.

The only thing missing is politicians with a backbone. If they can't implement full tolls on our highways, they should at least put a HOT lane on each one of those highways immediately. (All the 401 express lanes could become HOT lanes.)

Intelligent guys like you should not be dismissing the tolling option. The very opposite. Whose kool aid are you drinking?

An electronic tolling system generally requires paper billing (similar to the 407). If you have a transponder there is still mailing and processing costs that normally range between $4-5 per billing cycle. Without a transponder you have to add additional costs for the photo monitoring.

So the city will not make any money for the first use of the road in a month. These costs really reduce the benefit of tolls.

Beyond this you have to look at the cost of additional traffic on streets (to avoid tolls). This also delays transit.

Most politicians who agree to this will also lose the next election (remember the GST). Every time you pay the toll bill you would be reminded of who passed the law. This is a huge deterrent.

 

[k10ery]

An electronic tolling system generally requires paper billing (similar to the 407). If you have a transponder there is still mailing and processing costs that normally range between $4-5 per billing cycle. Without a transponder you have to add additional costs for the photo monitoring.

So the city will not make any money for the first use of the road in a month. These costs really reduce the benefit of tolls.

The monthly "transponder fee" covers these costs and more. Studies show that on average collection costs for transponder based expressway toll systems are generally 20% of revenues collected or less. If it was so hard to collect tolls, would every country except Canada be doing it?

Beyond this you have to look at the cost of additional traffic on streets (to avoid tolls). This also delays transit.

Those extra costs have got to be higher if they entire highway is torn down. But that's what are politicians are planning to do with the Gardiner, because they can't think of anything better.

Most politicians who agree to this will also lose the next election (remember the GST). Every time you pay the toll bill you would be reminded of who passed the law. This is a huge deterrent.

That has not been the experience elsewhere. London and Stockholm tolls were popular and the governments reelected. EZ Pass was rolled out in the US and toll rates increased without politician fallout as far as I know. If people saw that tolls were reducing property taxes - not just a tax grab - then I think that would help. Yes, our politicians seem too weak to do this now. But people talk about tolls like it violates the laws of nature or something! We can expect more from our politicians. And we can advocate for what we know is right. Most people on this board know tolls are right.

 

[sixrings]

I am always in favor of tolls and i use the highways daily and have a cottage I'd like to get to. Why tolls versus a gas tax. Simple my next car will be a Tesla then I cont be contributing to the roads and transit. Tolls may cost more to run then a gas tax but what happens when everyone buys a green vehicle?

 

[WislaHD]

[video=youtube;DoC_2mctmHs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoC_2mctmHs#t=9h22m58s[/video]

Start at 9h22m58s or click this link

Joe Cressy hitting the nail on the head.