Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

[darth_freeman]

Some argue that we should do nothing, and yes making the GO network free is akin to doing nothing for peak period relief but that stance ignores the available peak period capacity within the highway network— spcifically on the 407. Imo, it makes litterally no sense to not take advantage of that spare capacity.

There is less spare capacity on 407 during peak hours than you might expect. It is priced to just be on the verge of congestion in the peak hour. I don't think you could add a significant additional volume without it breaking down.

 

[turbanplanner]

Which section and time? I use it around 6:30pm near the Yonge street section and it’s just as full as I see on street view. I know it does scale linearly but it could help

There is less spare capacity on 407 during peak hours than you might expect. It is priced to just be on the verge of congestion in the peak hour. I don't think you could add a significant additional volume without it breaking down.

 

[Undead]

I used to take the 407 EB from the 427 at 4:30pm and you could tell traffic was heavy. The speed was often under 100 and there was usually less than a one car distance between people.

However, this was pre covid and things are probably different today. Though probably not too different given that everyone's being forced back to the office and congestion has been reported to be back to pre covid levels.

 

[turbanplanner]

I used to take the 407 EB from the 427 at 4:30pm and you could tell traffic was heavy. The speed was often under 100 and there was usually less than a one car distance between people.

However, this was pre covid and things are probably different today. Though probably not too different given that everyone's being forced back to the office and congestion has been reported to be back to pre covid levels.

Thanks! I've never taken it that far west

 

[Bojaxs]

Though probably not too different given that everyone's being forced back to the office and congestion has been reported to be back to pre covid levels.

I routinely drive on the 403 & 410, and honestly, it feels worst than pre-covid. I'll finish a shift at 11pm, and I'll be driving home, surprised at how many cars are still on the road. It's not congestion level traffic, mind you. But it seems I'm no longer able to just fly home at a steady 115-120km/h like I used to pre-covid.

 

[generalcanada]

Ontario teases ‘game-changing’ ideas to address Toronto’s suffocating congestion | Globalnews.ca

Speaking at the Toronto Region Board of Trade, Premier Doug Ford said he was planning to bring big changes to two particular routes, the Gardiner Expressway and Highway 401.

globalnews.ca

While its not for sure, the article mentions double decking the gardiner, or tunneling it.

Either way, this thing is going to suck up billions more to "fix" congestion

Im already rolling my eyes

edit: on second thought, i know ford has mused about decking the 401 at some point. Are they actually going to do it? Query whether that would need specific legislation as mentioned in the article

 

[PL1]

Ontario teases ‘game-changing’ ideas to address Toronto’s suffocating congestion | Globalnews.ca

Speaking at the Toronto Region Board of Trade, Premier Doug Ford said he was planning to bring big changes to two particular routes, the Gardiner Expressway and Highway 401.

globalnews.ca

While its not for sure, the article mentions double decking the gardiner, or tunneling it.

Either way, this thing is going to suck up billions more to "fix" congestion

Im already rolling my eyes

Please construe my "wow" reaction as OMFG, these guys love to spend money unwisely.

 

[Bojaxs]

Please construe my "wow" reaction as OMFG, these guys love to spend money unwisely.

Yeah, double decking is crazy.

The only portion of the 401 in Toronto that needs widening is the stretch between the 427 and the 409. It wouldn't curtail congestion, but it should help with the flow of traffic. Continuous collectors and express setup from Milton to Pickering.

 

[afransen]

I really don't understand what expanding the Gardiner would accomplish, the bottleneck is the exits and widening the pipe into the clog that is downtown traffic serves no useful purpose.

Decking the 401would be very costly. Maybe it will come to that one day, given the limited opportunities for EW highway capacity. I imagine the overpasses would need to be replaced with underpasses to provide clearance. It's a long term project even if it were to go ahead. It would be irresponsible to pursue it without tolling the 401 first to manage demand. If demand remains high with significant toll levels at peak, that would support this sort of investment. Spending tens of billions to subsidize cross-city car commutes is just nutty.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

here’s a few game changing ideas to address congestion: turn King Street into a LRT ROW, build a midtown GO corridor, and expand the Ontario Line in both directions.

 

[JJTheJetPln]

I routinely drive on the 403 & 410, and honestly, it feels worst than pre-covid. I'll finish a shift at 11pm, and I'll be driving home, surprised at how many cars are still on the road. It's not congestion level traffic, mind you. But it seems I'm no longer able to just fly home at a steady 115-120km/h like I used to pre-covid.

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...ghways-discussion.12233/page-462#post-2102893 - Thanks to @innsertnamehere for the source. Not sure if you've happened upon this but it's there.

Depending on where you get on / off on the 410, there's supposed to be plans to address the bottleneck that happens northbound around Clark/Queen, among other things. According to the poster below, they're still in the EA stage, but they're working on getting a finalized plan from the sounds of it.

Northbound:
Extending the HOV lane from 410 North ending at Orenda to end at Bovaird instead
Creating a separate exit lane for Clark
Extending the original lane that would have forced an exit at Clark to force an exit at Queen Street, with the lane beside the forced exit lane (furthest right) continuing on until it's forced to terminate just after the S-E/W exit ramp to Williams parkway
Merging the West-North entry ramp to the East-North Entry ramp on Williams Parkway and create a single entrance to go northbound as opposed to two separate entries
Extending the lane that ends within 300m after passing Bovaird Drive North exit to end about 300m after the Sandalwood Drive exit

Southbound:
Extend HOV starting from Orenda Road to start at Bovaird Drive instead
Add an additional lane from Sandalwood to Bovaird
Extend one lane from Bovaird to Queen Street, with realignment for the forced exit lanes
Tighten the Southbound Williams Parkway entry to the 410 so it's similarly geometric to the Northbound exit

That's about it. No idea when they'll start, but I'm growing wary of this "just one more lane" trope. These additions sound great, but the results feel like they're going to be minimal just based on how much traffic the 410 has every day. It's going to be the same nightmare we had when they were doing construction on the highway back in 2015.

 

[JJTheJetPln]

I really don't understand what expanding the Gardiner would accomplish, the bottleneck is the exits and widening the pipe into the clog that is downtown traffic serves no useful purpose.

Decking the 401would be very costly. Maybe it will come to that one day, given the limited opportunities for EW highway capacity. I imagine the overpasses would need to be replaced with underpasses to provide clearance. It's a long term project even if it were to go ahead. It would be irresponsible to pursue it without tolling the 401 first to manage demand. If demand remains high with significant toll levels at peak, that would support this sort of investment. Spending tens of billions to subsidize cross-city car commutes is just nutty.

I would absolutely support tolling highways, but I worry that if by doing so without supplementing transit say bus or rail, that those forms of transportation will have issues coping with the influx of new passengers daily. We could also suggest having people carpool, but everyone hates everyone, or hates the idea of carpooling if someone doesn't show up on time, or something else happens.

If however, they toll it, and there's significant traffic, then you've got cash flow to fix much of the highway, which is great to think about.

Ontario teases ‘game-changing’ ideas to address Toronto’s suffocating congestion | Globalnews.ca

Speaking at the Toronto Region Board of Trade, Premier Doug Ford said he was planning to bring big changes to two particular routes, the Gardiner Expressway and Highway 401.

globalnews.ca

While its not for sure, the article mentions double decking the gardiner, or tunneling it.

It would be quite the undertaking if they double decked the gardiner, but as I said in my previous post re: work on the 410, it feels like they're just adding more lanes, but vertically, without doing anything to help maybe cut down on traffic going in or out of the city every day at 3:30PM. Then again, I don't know what they could do that would reasonably alleviate it. It feels like they'd need a conductor leading a symphony in order to direct traffic rather than the reliance of traffic signals telling everyone what to do.

 

[afransen]

Effectively you have a line that runs parallel with the 401 from Winsdor to Oshawa. It would essentially be Ontario's own version of the NE corridor. Could this help take cars off the 401? If you're going beyond Oshawa, probably not.

I doubt people driving through the GTA represent a meaningful amount of peak traffic, nor total trips. If people are driving through the GTA, they are usually smart enough not to do it during peak times. Or they take the 407.

 

[duty free]

here’s a few game changing ideas to address congestion: turn King Street into a subway, build yet another subway, build a midtown GO corridor, and expand the Ontario Line in both directions.

ftfy

 

[innsertnamehere]

Which section and time? I use it around 6:30pm near the Yonge street section and it’s just as full as I see on street view. I know it does scale linearly but it could help

There is a heavy peak in the 4-5pm period basically, with the 404-400 section and 410-427 sections being the busiest from what I remember.

I’ve definitely driven during those times on those stretches and been near congested. I saw it this summer for the first time since the pandemic.

I’m also not exactly a daily 407 user either and use it maybe 20 times a year these days at most so my exposure isn’t as great as it used to be in the mid 2010’s when I was on it a lot more.