W. K. Lis
Superstar
If Europe and the rest of the world, outside of North America, can make do with smaller trucks, so can Toronto. Again, "bigger is better" is a myth.
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Road Safety & Vision Zero Plan
- Thread starter salsa
- Start date
If Europe and the rest of the world, outside of North America, can make do with smaller trucks, so can Toronto. Again, "bigger is better" is a myth.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
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Likewise, Toronto Parks has increased minimum width on new/rebuilt bike trails, wherever possible, to 4M in order to accommodate first responders (and Toronto Water) who want the trails to double as access roads.
The instinct exists to build roads, lanes and paths to permit the largest vehicle, instead of considering the right vehicle for that route/space.
Doubtless, sometimes, that instinct is right and the decision justifiable; but in others..............perhaps less so.
[/QUOTE]
They already do...
Likewise, Toronto Parks has increased minimum width on new/rebuilt bike trails, wherever possible, to 4M in order to accommodate first responders (and Toronto Water) who want the trails to double as access roads.
The instinct exists to build roads, lanes and paths to permit the largest vehicle, instead of considering the right vehicle for that route/space.
Doubtless, sometimes, that instinct is right and the decision justifiable; but in others..............perhaps less so.
[/QUOTE]
They already do...
JasonParis
Moderator
I'm not sure that's true as I live on a woonerf in Toronto.
afransen
Senior Member
Is it a private street? As far as I understand, all the public streets need to be 6m, which is probably too wide to meet the definition of a woonerf (no segregation for cars, buildings facing onto the road, 'awkward' for cars to use). Some of the streets that have been built 'woonerf-like' are still straight shots with quite wide streets that one could easily drive a lot faster than 30 kph on.
JasonParis
Moderator
Nope, public street.
afransen
Senior Member
This could be managed by using bollards that are removable by emergency services or service vehicles. The driver made a dumb mistake--I don't think it was done out of malice as the commentary on the video made it seem.
afransen
Senior Member
Grandfathered?
JasonParis
Moderator
Nope. It was built around 2012.
afransen
Senior Member
Do you mean Trolley Crescent? Some would argue that it is not quite there.
REID: That's a nice laneway, but it's no woonerf - Spacing Toronto
One of the more intriguing elements of the West Don Lands development was the promise that it would include some “woonerfs“ — a Dutch concept generally translated as “living street” though more literally (according to Wikipedia), “living yard.” The first one, Trolley Lane, has now been partially...
spacing.ca
lenaitch
Senior Member
Police patrol vehicles are based on existing 'general production' platforms. Police vehicles in other parts of the world are smaller because that is what the general automotive fleet is. I don't know how they are equipped elsewhere, but with the amount of equipment and tech in typical Canadian patrol vehicles, plus two occupants, they are already challenged for space.
Fire apparatus is more specialty-built but still largely based on existing manufacturers' platforms. I know FDNY has imposed some features to maximize width in narrow areas but it is largely smaller features such as recessed handrails, etc. If there was a marked departure from typical North American platforms I imagine there would be a significant premium to pay. There is also a matter of physics - you can only install or cart around so much equipment or crew into a certain space. A smaller ladder or bucket truck ('cherry picker') would have smaller range of use. There is a good chance that smaller would mean more, which obviously comes at a cost. As for certain vehicles for certain streets, not only would that increase the fleet size, it would become a huge logistical and tactical nightmare, certainly in any 'transitional' period.
Much would be the same for smaller commercial vehicles, such as the small European garbage truck shown. It clearly could not cover the same route as a larger one, meaning a larger fleet+crews, more dead runs to unload (=lost time, more fuel consumption), less per-day coverage, etc. Same if you want a contractor to build your deck. The readymix or dump truck they send to the condo build might not get down a narrow back street, meaning a larger, less flexible fleet, which the consumer will ultimately pay for.
Fire apparatus is more specialty-built but still largely based on existing manufacturers' platforms. I know FDNY has imposed some features to maximize width in narrow areas but it is largely smaller features such as recessed handrails, etc. If there was a marked departure from typical North American platforms I imagine there would be a significant premium to pay. There is also a matter of physics - you can only install or cart around so much equipment or crew into a certain space. A smaller ladder or bucket truck ('cherry picker') would have smaller range of use. There is a good chance that smaller would mean more, which obviously comes at a cost. As for certain vehicles for certain streets, not only would that increase the fleet size, it would become a huge logistical and tactical nightmare, certainly in any 'transitional' period.
Much would be the same for smaller commercial vehicles, such as the small European garbage truck shown. It clearly could not cover the same route as a larger one, meaning a larger fleet+crews, more dead runs to unload (=lost time, more fuel consumption), less per-day coverage, etc. Same if you want a contractor to build your deck. The readymix or dump truck they send to the condo build might not get down a narrow back street, meaning a larger, less flexible fleet, which the consumer will ultimately pay for.
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afransen
Senior Member
^Could those costs not be put against costs of lower density, more infrastructure, higher car use (and social costs that entails)? The Dutch seem willing and eager to incur those costs rather than build Toronto-style suburbs.
crs1026
Superstar
The added cost of size-restricting vehicles, and thus adding to transport costs, would probably play off against the cost effectiveness of density, certainly.
But - Do we want all those extra vehicles on our roads? Will our roads be safer with more smaller trucks out there? If those extra trucks are making deliveries, where will they park? (In the bike lanes, naturally....so we've doubled *that* problem). We may still have use for those big trucks, but we need them slowed down.
I would think that we might have to design our chicanes and lane layouts differently to address some of this. e.g. - Maybe our woonerfs should have pinch points that large fire trucks can drive over or around if necessary.
- Paul
lenaitch
Senior Member
Perhaps, but that is one of the differences between annualized budgetting and long term economics. Politicians and taxpayers (and consumers in terms of commercial vehicles) of today have to be willing to bear the costs of preparing for, or at least paying to accommodate, something down the road. Tough sell.
Urban conditions, layouts, infrastructure, etc. in European cities have their bases dating back hundreds of years. The narrow, winding streets with buildings to the sidewalk were largely laid out centuries ago, so you either blow it up (well, they seem to keep trying) or deal with it. We had a blank, wide-open canvas. Maybe they wish they could up-size.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
crs1026
Superstar
One of the things we overlook when we (perhaps simplistically) run to the Netherlands for easy answers is...the Dutch did build Toronto-style suburbs, as did most other large cities. They are still there, but with different interfaces between urban, suburbs, and rural.
The Dutch have big roads and big trucks, but their supply chain does not allow as many big vehicles to penetrate the denser, central areas where road space is being reallocated to other non-auto modes of transport.
When we look to such places for inspiration, we need to keep an apples to apples focus....what they are building in urban areas may not be what exists in the Dutch “hinterland”.
The Dutch (and others) have the same problem we do....much of the suburban realm is too new, and not yet paid for....so changing it can’t happen for a generation or more.
We have to start thinking differently about busy roads like, for instance, lower Bayview and Mount Pleasant which we built with the intent of funnelling autos into the core...(something we may no longer want to do) versus, say, Finch or Sheppard.... where it may be 30 years before we have changed enough of the built form to support a “Dutch” thing.
We urgently need roads to be safer on streets like Finch - perhaps more urgently than in the downtown, if one reads the statistics - but the solution may need to be different.
- Paul
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