Racism in Toronto Workforce

[Dichotomy]

75 years ago, immigrants got off the train or boat with nothing and received nothing. That is not the case today. There is an entire industry built around their well-being: an industry that is extremely adept at knowing the system and protecting that system. An opportunist is someone who comes here expecting hand outs and for things to be easy. The bedraggled Poles and Italians that came here 75 years ago expected nothing and got nothing.
It is also not helpful to the discussion to keep dragging out 'who got here first.' Recent evidence points out that the Vikings preceded the 'aboriginals' and we know the aboriginals immigrated here, too. How far back do we want to go? I don't know how my ancestors got here. In fact, on my father's side, there is a castle and a town in Wales named after my family. I wouldn't think they came here to feather their bed, but I don't know.

I readily admit my partner came here as a tourist - nothing more. He stayed because of me. Many a times he wanted to throw in his studies and head back to his (paid for) condo in Sao Paulo. Unlike some, I have lived how difficult it is to learn this language - not studied it in a book. I have seen the immigration system from the inside.
I know a lot of professionals are leaving Mexico because of the corruption and poor living conditions - but wouldn't Mexico be better off if they stayed? The middle class is what that country needs, not the peasants and the idle rich.
There are a lot of Canadians who would work in Tim Horton's, just not at $8 an hour. So I'd pay .25 more for a coffee - hell, Starbucks charges double anyway.
The business conservatives and the social liberals make strange bedfellows when it comes to immigration policy

 

[Hydrogen]

Dichotomy, your partner came as a "tourist" and has had difficulty trying to learn the language, and as a result, is having difficulty finding work - surely a frustrating situation. Yet as you have noted, other individuals who have come here and also had to acquire the language have still managed to find employment, yet somehow according to you they reflect negatively on Canada's immigration policy. That sounds like a rather unfair assessment.

Recent evidence points out that the Vikings preceded the 'aboriginals' and we know the aboriginals immigrated here, too.

There is rock-solid physical evidence that undermines any notion that Vikings preceded aboriginal peoples of North America.

 

[Dichotomy]

Dichotomy, your partner came as a "tourist" and has had difficulty trying to learn the language, and as a result, is having difficulty finding work - surely a frustrating situation. Yet as you have noted, other individuals who have come here and also had to acquire the language have still managed to find employment, yet somehow according to you they reflect negatively on Canada's immigration policy. That sounds like a rather unfair assessment.



There is rock-solid physical evidence that undermines any notion that Vikings preceded aboriginal peoples of North America.

You are making assumptions. My partner has a very good paying job. He has worked exceptionally hard to learn English. My point is that not all immigrants have the same opportunities that we do (no kids, time, money.) They struggle at menial jobs while trying to raise a familiy AND figure out our confusing culture - or, they don't bother and after 30 years barely speak a word of English. It is through my partner's struggles that my eyes have been opened to what others, especially from non-European countries must be facing. It is from being the only Canadian-born person at many a cocktail party and listening to these newcomer's opinions about this country! I travel in very mixed circles.
I am basing my observations on what immigrants tells me. Have you heard what they say about each other?
Let's not even get into the 40,000 'Canadians' who had to be evacuated from the West bank 2 or 3 years ago. With the money that External Affairs spent there, we could have built all the bike lanes in Toronto that one could dream of!
Anyway, this thread is getting completely off topic. I will throw this one out, though: ask someone in the banking industry why they will NOT loan money to anybody in the taxi business. There is only one bank that will (GMAC) and they want 50% down, 2 years max. Hmmm. And these taxi drivers never have any trouble coming up with the money. Hmmm again.

Let's move beyond the headlines and do some out of the box thinking about the future of 'our' country.

Oh, and although paleontologists believe a land bridge across Siberia is the most likely link for early North American settlers, DNA evidence and tools unearthed more recently also show similarities with ancient tribes in Spain that exists 15,000 years ago. Australia was 'colonized' much earlier than expected, so it has been proven sailing vessels go back further into history than thought before. Additionally, oceans were much lower during the last Ice Age and there is evidence that fishing parties could have come across from Europe. The jury is still out. But who really cares? None of us in this discussion were here then, that's all that matters. My bad about the Viking remark, though.

 

[Hydrogen]

My assumption was based on what sounded to be a "past-tense" situation with respect to your partner's well-paying job in his country of origin, and that he was having difficulty finding such a job here due to his linguistic limitations.

Nevertheless, the situation you describe for immigrants is hardly new. The menial jobs are jobs, and for some recent immigrants they are better and more stable jobs than what they once had. Do some recent immigrants return to where they came from? Yes. Are some immigrants disappointed that they can't find work in their field of training here? Yes. But this has happened in the past as well. It's not new.

I am basing my observations on what immigrants tells me.

It might come as a surprise, but me too. While I'm Canadian born, my family all came over as immigrants. I attended a university where there was an abundance if immigrants. I've taught immigrants. I'm quite aware of the challenges that face these people. I'm also impressed by the attitude that many share: that their efforts and hard work will make things happen.

Let's move beyond the headlines and do some out of the box thinking about the future of 'our' country.

Fine, but with respect to what?

 

[Hydrogen]

Oh, and although paleontologists believe a land bridge across Siberia is the most likely link for early North American settlers, DNA evidence and tools unearthed more recently also show similarities with ancient tribes in Spain that exists 15,000 years ago. Australia was 'colonized' much earlier than expected, so it has been proven sailing vessels go back further into history than thought before. Additionally, oceans were much lower during the last Ice Age and there is evidence that fishing parties could have come across from Europe. The jury is still out. But who really cares? None of us in this discussion were here then, that's all that matters. My bad about the Viking remark, though.

Your post is a little unclear. Are you talking about fishing tribes coming across from Spain to North America 15,000 years ago? Where is the evidence of the sailing and navigation technology that would allow this? Around 15,000 years ago was the end of the last glacial maximum. Much of Northern Europe was a little too cold and dry to live in comfortably, and the people living in the Iberian Peninsula would have been much more concerned with daily living rather than putting resources and lives towards something like ocean travel. Sea levels were lower, yes, but there was still a very daunting piece of water to cross - complete with very difficult weather right in the middle.

While it is interesting to draw parallels between the peoples of Southern Asia and the Pacific Islands, the culture that adapts to water travel between Islands will become more adept sailors and boat builders much more quickly. There was nothing particularly inviting or alluring about the Atlantic Ocean for people back then - unless you liked storms or dying lost at sea.


Sorry to get even more off topic.

 

[theowne]

It is also not helpful to the discussion to keep dragging out 'who got here first.'

Then what's the point of your argument? You seem to think that it is easy for an immigrant to leave his old country and way of living for something unknown and new. I don't buy it, because although you claim you've experienced it, I do come from a family of immigrants and I have, in fact, seen what they go through, and I find it disingenuous to parade the idea the they are coming to Canada with a comfortable garden of flowers just waiting for them.

If it's not helpful to keep dragging out "who came here first", then I do not see the difference between a Pole who came in 1946, whose children were integrated by the next generation and a non-European who did the same in 1989.

 

[Dichotomy]

Then what's the point of your argument? You seem to think that it is easy for an immigrant to leave his old country and way of living for something unknown and new. I don't buy it, because although you claim you've experienced it, I do come from a family of immigrants and I have, in fact, seen what they go through, and I find it disingenuous to parade the idea the they are coming to Canada with a comfortable garden of flowers just waiting for them.

If it's not helpful to keep dragging out "who came here first", then I do not see the difference between a Pole who came in 1946, whose children were integrated by the next generation and a non-European who did the same in 1989.

You don't? In the '40s, many immigrants were not that much worse off than a lot of Canadians. My grandmother didn't have an indoor toilet until the late '40s - and she lived in Rexdale! Talk to people from the East Coast about who in their town had a telephone or electricity in the '40s or even '50s! You could drive a bulldozer or heavy equipment with no training and no skills in the '40s. Now, a heavy equipment has to be licensed (lots of training) and probably unionized. A lot of Canadians dropped out of grade school to work on farms, factories, etc. Today, nearly every job demands a highschool diploma, as a minimum.
There were no support systems in the '40s for most immigrants. Today, oddly enough, they seem to know their rights before they can even speak the language. There are dozens of agencies for the new immigrant today, just waiting to help them with their application or show them how to work the system. In fact, many cultural groups are reaching a critical mass now whereby they don't even need the rest of us: entire businesses that only pitch to their own kind and don't want or need 'our' money.

Where did you get the impression that I thought it was 'easy' for them to come here? Our embassies give that impression, but learning the culture is very very difficult. That's the problem. They are told it will be easy. Those that have the money, often return to their homeland. Others are trapped. The immigration industry thrives on perpetuating the myth.

Look, there are two types of immigrants coming over here now: 1) those who are legitimately escaping persecution or coming from ravaged countries where there is little or no hope and 2) those who 'know' people here and are looking for a free ride. I don't see how we need people to work at Tim Horton's enough to bother with either group.
We have to ask ourselves, what is in it for Canada? It's a far different world than 50 or 75 years ago! Dentists and architects from Poland, Dubai or Malaysia or not flocking here - its other types. And even if one person does qualify under the point system, what happens when they then bring over half their village - who do NOT qualify under the point system? What are those consequences?
Recent stats are showing that immigrants of the past 15-20 years are NOT integrating and they are performing more poorly. We need to find out the reasons for that or they (and the rest of us) will be in a lot of trouble.

 

[Mustapha]

Recent stats are showing that immigrants of the past 15-20 years are NOT integrating and they are performing more poorly. We need to find out the reasons for that or they (and the rest of us) will be in a lot of trouble.

Dichotomy: Perhaps it's not the immigrants. The type of manufacturing work that supported immigrants in the past have disappeared. Only service work nowadays that doesn't pay well at all. Some service jobs aren't even regular - when I was a teen working in a hotel for pocket money; the housekeeping staff would be laid off if things got quiet. It's still that way in the restaurant biz for sure.

I hate to say this but I think we have too many immigrants chasing too few good jobs. Good jobs in Toronto aren't thick on the ground. I think we should restrict immigration for a few years.

 

[adma]

Besides, when it comes to second-raters and opportunists, has it ever been different? Remember that it was rejects from Old Blighty and uncouth ruffians from the French Empire who settled Canada in past centuries. At least a penal-colony past makes the Australian situation more explicit...

 

[theowne]

Not sure how to respond to Dichotomy any further, his mind seems set on his own beliefs that spring from, I guess, his personal interactions with a few people. All I can provide is my own experience so that people don't get the idea that what he says is completely true. My parents did not come for a "free ride", they knew the problems of trying to enter a new environment, and my father in particular visited Canada twice before immigrating in order to size up the situation and get an idea of what it was like. Immigrants are not a single entity who are all clueless and enamored by some concept of a "free ride". I don't know if Dichotomy goes on the bus, sees a minority and thinks in his head "what a coward, leaving his country for a free ride in Canada". Since my posts use less exclamation marks than his, I suppose I will get drowned out but, well, that's all I have to say on this subject. Let me just remind everyone again that America's legal immigrants are contributing in highly disproportionate numbers to the upper end of society, an obvious benefit. Yet, America has no points system, lottery, and family reunification is 2/3rds of their annual immigration. Maybe we need to question where the problem with all this comes from.

 

[Dichotomy]

Not sure how to respond to Dichotomy any further, his mind seems set on his own beliefs that spring from, I guess, his personal interactions with a few people. All I can provide is my own experience so that people don't get the idea that what he says is completely true. My parents did not come for a "free ride", they knew the problems of trying to enter a new environment, and my father in particular visited Canada twice before immigrating in order to size up the situation and get an idea of what it was like. Immigrants are not a single entity who are all clueless and enamored by some concept of a "free ride". I don't know if Dichotomy goes on the bus, sees a minority and thinks in his head "what a coward, leaving his country for a free ride in Canada". Since my posts use less exclamation marks than his, I suppose I will get drowned out but, well, that's all I have to say on this subject. Let me just remind everyone again that America's legal immigrants are contributing in highly disproportionate numbers to the upper end of society, an obvious benefit. Yet, America has no points system, lottery, and family reunification is 2/3rds of their annual immigration. Maybe we need to question where the problem with all this comes from.

Don't take my word for it. Pick up a copy of Who Gets In, written a few years ago by Daniel Stofman. A real eye opener. Here is a man who spent many years studying Canadian immigration.
As to the 'contributing to the economy' statement: let's not be so hasty. There are a disproportionate number of 'new Canadians' who appear to be contributing to the economy but are only paying lip service. I work with the banking industry and there are many, many 'new Canadians' who will readily show $90k in income on their application, but - oops, can only demonstrate half that on their T4. Hmmm.
We only need to visit their countries and try to understand why those countries are in such trouble. (Hint: in many of those countries, the rule of law is meaningless, or merely a suggestion.) Why do we automatically assume they will change their ways and abide by our rules once they are here?
Has anyone bothered to really investigate the billions of Canadian dollars that are pouring out of this country to support families abroad?

Being the spouse of a recent immigrant, I am not 'anti-immigrant,' I am pro-Canadian. As one of our friends observed recently,"I have two passports. When this country goes to hell, I can always go home. You can't." He was trying to be funny, but I was not amused.

 

[Urban Shocker]

We should certainly have another amnesty for illegal aliens. There was one in the mid-70s and one in the mid-80s, but none since. Once accepted, these people will be able to get decent jobs, pay taxes, and contribute to the country the same as everyone else.

 

[Mot]

Don't take my word for it. Pick up a copy of Who Gets In, written a few years ago by Daniel Stofman. A real eye opener. Here is a man who spent many years studying Canadian immigration.
As to the 'contributing to the economy' statement: let's not be so hasty. There are a disproportionate number of 'new Canadians' who appear to be contributing to the economy but are only paying lip service. I work with the banking industry and there are many, many 'new Canadians' who will readily show $90k in income on their application, but - oops, can only demonstrate half that on their T4. Hmmm.
We only need to visit their countries and try to understand why those countries are in such trouble. (Hint: in many of those countries, the rule of law is meaningless, or merely a suggestion.) Why do we automatically assume they will change their ways and abide by our rules once they are here?
Has anyone bothered to really investigate the billions of Canadian dollars that are pouring out of this country to support families abroad?

Being the spouse of a recent immigrant, I am not 'anti-immigrant,' I am pro-Canadian. As one of our friends observed recently,"I have two passports. When this country goes to hell, I can always go home. You can't." He was trying to be funny, but I was not amused.

You are no more Canadian than a person who has become a citizen that was not born here.

 

[urbandreamer]

^Mot: Yeah right!

Sorry, you're wrong.

 

[theowne]

Why is he wrong?

I'd even go as far as to say someone who consciously came to Canada to become a naturalized citizen is probably more of a "Canadian" then someone who just happened to be born here by accident of birth.