Premier Kathleen Wynne and What Her Election Means for Transit

[ssiguy2]

Why does Toronto make things so complicated?

Has no one ever heard of electronic tolling? All one has to do is provide all citizens of the GTA a little sticker and if there city is not getting improved transit service or their city hall refuses to implement revenue tools then the road toll for those people could be adjusted or even negated completely.

Toronto could also, if it had the balls, make the Gardiner and/or the DVP toll roads and issue all drivers in the City of Toronto an electronic decal which defaults their toll......the suburbanites pay and city dwellers don't.

The new premier makes little difference, this is a Toronto and GTA political problem not a provincial one. Toronto is getting a staggering $9 billion this decade for transit infrastructure with few strings attached and no expectations of contribution from the city except it's part of the Spadina ext. I have never even heard of any city anywhere on this planet where the municple government is given such massive amounts and the city doesn't haven't to contribute a dime...........let another example of McGuinty incompetence.

Toronto has always had the ability to toll the Gardiner/DVP but has lacked the balls to do so. It also has the ability to levy special taxes on certain businesses one of which would be a special levy on gas stations. Those stations would of course have to charge more to make up the difference..........a gas tax that doesn't need provincial approval. Toronto has the ability to greatly raise parking taxes especially in it's downtown core and spend that money on transit and to discourage urban driving which Calgary has done since the 1960s, Calgary is the most expensive downtown parking in NA outside of NYC.

There are numerous revenue tools that Toronto could have already implemented but choose not to for political expedenency and both left and right wing councils have played the game. Toronto has gridlock and a very small rapid transit service for it's size because it made a conscious decision not to expand it.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Why does Toronto make things so complicated?

Because. It's what we do

 

[vegeta_skyline]

Why does Toronto make things so complicated?

More fun that way.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I would be interested to know how you limit the tolls and gas taxes to cities which have an all day go train option? Using the most talked about road as an example, the Gardiner brings people in from cities that are not Oakville, Burlington and south Mississauga.....how would the system know whether you were from those places as opposed to, say, Brampton?

Why just Burlington/Oakville and Mississauga? Oshawa is along the lake shore too and they get more frequent service then Brampton. In fact they are the reason why lakeshore numbers are so far ahead.

 

[TOareaFan]

Why just Burlington/Oakville and Mississauga? Oshawa is along the lake shore too and they get more frequent service then Brampton. In fact they are the reason why lakeshore numbers are so far ahead.

Unlike Oshawa, those cities are in the west and any toll "border" set up in the west would be common with Brampton (the post I was responding to was suggesting that tolls be only charged to people who live in municipalities with all day two way GO trains.....i was wondering how the toll system on the Gardiner would separate them).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

• Meadowvale Station on the Milton GO line
• Mount Pleasant Station on the Kitchener GO line
• East Gwillimbury Station on the Barrie GO line
• Richmond Hill Station on the Richmond Hill GO line
• Mount Joy Station on the Stouffville GO line

Ok, I like what I see, and I would like to get closer to the :30 min LIRR/NJT/MNRR that the vaunted NYC has, but he's what I wanted

• Guelph Station on the Georgetown GO line - Extending to just Mount Pleasant does nothing for the masses in North Halton. Calling the line Kitchener when it gets just 4 (future 6?) trains is confusing.
• Bradford Station on the Barrie Line - Barrie is too far to have consistent service despite the fact go owns the line. Bradford brings in Simcoe and one more stop is not a lot to ask.
• Gormley Station on the Richmond Hill GO Line - Get the new users to the new station now. But you can't have that and the yonge subway line. Choose One. Or give Mississauga the Sherway-Dundas extension of the Bloor Danforth as well.
• Stouffville Station on the Stouffville GO Line - Come on, one more station, it's not that far, it's not asking a lot.

Any thoughts?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Unlike Oshawa, those cities are in the west and any toll "border" set up in the west would be common with Brampton (the post I was responding to was suggesting that tolls be only charged to people who live in municipalities with all day two way GO trains.....i was wondering how the toll system on the Gardiner would separate them).

fair. I guess the tolls should be limited to the shore line.

 

[Palma]

I am not convinced by charging by distance. First of all, on TTC buses it's a non starter. Does any major city charge by distance on local bus routes? I have never encountered it.

On the subway, is the TTC really extensive enough to justify that kind of system? And is the operating cost that different for someone who rides from Bloor to Union as for someone going much farther?

On the whole, the way to improve TTC service is with higher and more consistent subsidies, commensurate with those in other cities. Everything else is a sideshow.

If you take a taxi does it cost more to go from Bloor to Union or Bloor to Sheppard? So why should it be any different with the TTC?Apply the same logic to plane rides or train rides.

 

[ssiguy2]

Because. It's what we do

Well it's nice to know Toronto excels at something.

I have never been a fan of road tolls except on new infrastructure. It penalizes people for living in a certain area for no other reason than they live in that area.Someone who drives from Miminco to Malvern and back everyday pays nothing but the person who drives from Miminco to Bathurst pays thru the nose. It is a very unfair tax. Certainly a better solution would be to toll the Gardiner/DVP but everyone in the City of Toronto would have the option of buying a, for example, $50/yearly decal that lets them ride on the freeways for free...........city dwellers don't pay the tolls but 905ers do. That is also a toll but is a fair one as the people outside the City don't pay for the maintenance of those roads. Ah...wonders of science.

I have always favored gas taxes as they are fundamentally fair.................the more you drive the more you pay. It also encourages carpooling and smaller more fuel efficient and less polluting vehicles.

Toronto has always had these options and it doesn't matter who the premier is, Toronto won't do it. City Hall and Torontonians fundamentally do not accept their responsibilities. Even if Toronto was to agree to some revenue tools thru a plebisite they will still consider it unfair. The idea of Toronto having to pay a portion of it's own transit infrastructure seems alien and they don't seem to understand that there is a cost to a free ride. In Toronto's case that has been a tiny rapid transit system, high fares, terrible transit integration with the neighbouring suburbs, and declining services.

My manuscript on Toronto's offence at all Ontarians not paying for it's infrastrucutre was obviously a joke but it wasn't that far off the mark. Toronto feels that Queen's Park should always pick up the tab but don't seem to realize that Queen's Park means everyone in Ontario. When it comes to transportation, Toronto.......wait for it............got off relatively easy by Harris.

It's a lot easier for a huge high density centre to pay for it's transit than it is for a small lightly populated county to have to all of a sudden maintain and improve huge amounts of provincial highways that have been downloaded to them. Neither situation was fair but Toronto seems to think it was the only one that paid the price.

Here's an idea..............increase provincial taxes substantially to pay for Toronto transit expansion but for every $1 raised, Toronto gets only 0.20 cents and the rest goes to pay for a 100% of the roads and transit for everywhere outside the City. Torontonians would be beside themselves yet that is exactly what Torontonians expect of the rest of the province.

McGuinty's biggest mistake on the transit file was giving it any money unless the city contributed and certain percentage ie 70/30. Toronto would still gets it's $8 billion but not without substantial contributions from the city itself. It would have forced the issue and made Toronto put it's money where it's industrial size mouth is.

 

[blacktrojan3921]

Yes they do, since people around the province aren't going to be happy watching "their tax dollars" all apparently being funneled towards the GTA. Since you used North Bay as an examples and I know that city well, I will say that residents were and are not happy that the Northlander was cancelled, with direct comparisons drawn to how the province supports GO. Local transit there doesn't require major capital since they've planned for that (Metrolinx Transit Purchasing CO-OP means 2 new buses a year until the fleet is entirely low floor in 2014) but the system can barely remain afloat and there is no money for any extras like Bike Racks which would help ridership or the installation of an ASA system which I believe is required at some point. A source of steady provincial funding beyond the gas tax is what cities like North Bay are looking for.

Didn't the cancelling order came from the federal governement?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Well it's nice to know Toronto excels at something.

I have never been a fan of road tolls except on new infrastructure. It penalizes people for living in a certain area for no other reason than they live in that area.Someone who drives from Miminco to Malvern and back everyday pays nothing but the person who drives from Miminco to Bathurst pays thru the nose. It is a very unfair tax. Certainly a better solution would be to toll the Gardiner/DVP but everyone in the City of Toronto would have the option of buying a, for example, $50/yearly decal that lets them ride on the freeways for free...........city dwellers don't pay the tolls but 905ers do. That is also a toll but is a fair one as the people outside the City don't pay for the maintenance of those roads. Ah...wonders of science.

I have always favored gas taxes as they are fundamentally fair.................the more you drive the more you pay. It also encourages carpooling and smaller more fuel efficient and less polluting vehicles.

Toronto has always had these options and it doesn't matter who the premier is, Toronto won't do it. City Hall and Torontonians fundamentally do not accept their responsibilities. Even if Toronto was to agree to some revenue tools thru a plebisite they will still consider it unfair. The idea of Toronto having to pay a portion of it's own transit infrastructure seems alien and they don't seem to understand that there is a cost to a free ride. In Toronto's case that has been a tiny rapid transit system, high fares, terrible transit integration with the neighbouring suburbs, and declining services.

My manuscript on Toronto's offence at all Ontarians not paying for it's infrastrucutre was obviously a joke but it wasn't that far off the mark. Toronto feels that Queen's Park should always pick up the tab but don't seem to realize that Queen's Park means everyone in Ontario. When it comes to transportation, Toronto.......wait for it............got off relatively easy by Harris.

It's a lot easier for a huge high density centre to pay for it's transit than it is for a small lightly populated county to have to all of a sudden maintain and improve huge amounts of provincial highways that have been downloaded to them. Neither situation was fair but Toronto seems to think it was the only one that paid the price.

Here's an idea..............increase provincial taxes substantially to pay for Toronto transit expansion but for every $1 raised, Toronto gets only 0.20 cents and the rest goes to pay for a 100% of the roads and transit for everywhere outside the City. Torontonians would be beside themselves yet that is exactly what Torontonians expect of the rest of the province.

McGuinty's biggest mistake on the transit file was giving it any money unless the city contributed and certain percentage ie 70/30. Toronto would still gets it's $8 billion but not without substantial contributions from the city itself. It would have forced the issue and made Toronto put it's money where it's industrial size mouth is.

Hey despite what the others say, you are one of the smartest posters here. This region is afraid of taxes to get better, even NYC had the commuter tax. I got your sarcasm, but not everyone did. Now, though, I think we are finaly moving forward and it's nice to see. But it should never have come to a breaking point imo.

 

[nfitz]

Didn't the cancelling order came from the federal governement?

No. 100% Ontario.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Ok, I like what I see, and I would like to get closer to the :30 min LIRR/NJT/MNRR that the vaunted NYC has, but he's what I wanted

• Guelph Station on the Georgetown GO line - Extending to just Mount Pleasant does nothing for the masses in North Halton. Calling the line Kitchener when it gets just 4 (future 6?) trains is confusing.
• Bradford Station on the Barrie Line - Barrie is too far to have consistent service despite the fact go owns the line. Bradford brings in Simcoe and one more stop is not a lot to ask.
• Gormley Station on the Richmond Hill GO Line - Get the new users to the new station now. But you can't have that and the yonge subway line. Choose One. Or give Mississauga the Sherway-Dundas extension of the Bloor Danforth as well.
• Stouffville Station on the Stouffville GO Line - Come on, one more station, it's not that far, it's not asking a lot.

Any thoughts?

Nfitz nothing on this? Anyone?

 

[rbt]

Apply the same logic to plane rides.

Hah. So Sheppard to Union should be 20% cheaper than Bloor to Union Airline ticket pricing is whack. There has been more than one time I've bought tickets with multiple connections and got off part way through at my real destination due to lower pricing.

 

[nfitz]

Nfitz nothing on this? Anyone?

I was having problems understanding your original post. In particular I'm not sure what the text you quoted was ... doesn't link anywhere. But partially I was numbed by ssiguy2's mind-numbing essays.

Re-reading it now, I'm not sure if your suggesting that these stations be added (like Stouffville) or should get 30-minute service (like Guelph). Certainly Stouffville should probably get a train ... but the densities out here are pretty low really, compared to what you get along the Lakeshore lines, and in Mississauga, Brampton, etc. And it's a long way from Georgetown to Guelph. Are there really the densities west of Brampton to support an all-day service? Georgetown is so small it doesn't even have local transit! And Acton is so small that you can walk anywhere in town.

Can't speak to Gormley or Bradford ... not that familiar with the areas ...