gabe
Senior Member
Yep, friends of mine used to move to Kitchener-Waterloo/Guelph/Hamilton for cheap rent and housing. Now those cities rents and house prices are nearly as insane as the GTA.
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Premier Doug Ford's Ontario
- Thread starter animatronic
- Start date
Yep, friends of mine used to move to Kitchener-Waterloo/Guelph/Hamilton for cheap rent and housing. Now those cities rents and house prices are nearly as insane as the GTA.
Northern Light
Superstar
Sure, one shouldn't generalize, or say things without adding the appropriate asterisks.......
But the decisions taken to boost labour force supply and weaken union legislation and empower manufacturer's to up and leave to lower cost jurisdictions were taken over a 4 decade or so period from about 1980, the onset of Reagan and Thatcher et al. Those decisions were taken, largely, by previous generations, not by people who are today under the age of 40, or even 50 (with the notable exception of our current PM who was under 50 when taking such decisions)
These are real and substantive choices from Temporary Foreign Workers, to Free Trade Deals, to failing to arrest the decline in private sector unions etc etc.
As well as those decision which led to too many people chasing too little housing.
While some of those choices may have been made in ignorance of the consequences, many, if not most, were made knowing exactly what they would do and who they would benefit, and who they would harm.
Those same governments largely broke the welfare state, EI went from 75% income replacement to 55%, and from a clear majority of the unemployed qualifying for benefits to less than 1/2. Welfare, in inflation adjusted dollars is a fraction
of what it was in the early 90s, meanwhile, public housing saw its wait list go from a year or so in the early 80s.......to more than 10 years today.
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I think the reaction here is to an older generation that found life considerably easier (for the majority, not all) looking down at younger folks and condescendingly implying they are lazy or stupid for not being able to get ahead.
I imagine some did, and they probably should have, where those parents participated in blowing up the stock market to then unprecedented levels, taking on debts they couldn't afford etc.
Now, the Depression was compounded by a major drought in North America as well......... that one can't reasonably attribute to a previous generation.
People shouldn't throw an earlier generation under the bus for the impact of their own choices, but they can certainly ask any generation to wear the choices they made, that are impacting people today.
Do you not think this is a pretty silly comment? Exactly how many people in North America do you think hold gender studies degrees?
There are lot of folks hurting who do not have any post-secondary education, who work retail and other front-line jobs, like security, office cleaner, janitor, hospital porter, cafeteria worker, line cook and so on.
There are also many people with degrees of varying utility, from Project Management to IT, to English, or History that are also suffering.
Fewer people with professional degrees are challenged, but even some of them are..........when there are Engineers (P. Eng) working, in Toronto for less than 80k a year........and those fresh out of school are struggling to get work in the field at all, you know there's a problem.
And when 80k a year can be a struggle. Yet full-time minimum wage is roughly 35k a year.............. that's another.
My math works out that in the GTA, if you didn't put anything away for retirement, if you had zero dependents, if you spent zero on dating/going out, on vacations/travel, and zero on clothing and furniture...... so you're entire budget was a 1brdm apartment, insurance, a bus pass with a small amount for uber-carshare as required, a cell phone, and home internet, plus groceries, that's it.........
You need 54k before taxes or about $27 per hour. Minimum wage is $17.20.
People need some clothes, shoes, winter gear, some social life and if they live in the cheaper burbs, a car.
Sure, some people should absolutely have a more practical skill set. But lets be clear, most people struggling are working at or near full-time hours. But they are earning a wage that doesn't cover the basics, let alone the good life.
The recent construction slowdown has also, temporarily, left some of those trades short of work as well.
If you don't own a large car/van/truck.............moving is not cheap, an upfront cost of $5k for the pros, or maybe $1,500 if you can rent a truck (if you drive), and get friends to help for beer and pizza.....
That doesn't count any costs for new curtains or the like.
Again, no one is saying there are no millennials or young people taking vacations...........
That's too generalized.
Its simply to say, its less common, taken across a wide swath of people in that age group than it was for their parents.
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Coolibop
Active Member
I will add to the above: nightlife in Toronto seems to have dwindled...partly due to policies and culture changes, but also imagine some of it related to cost of living.
I am constantly shocked to have an establishment close at 11 when out (even on the weekend).
I am constantly shocked to have an establishment close at 11 when out (even on the weekend).
old boy
Senior Member
It's not just in Toronto.
old boy
Senior Member
We are in our 70's and have worked at good-paying jobs. We can be perceived successful. We've been frugal in taking small trips, none out of Canada. Our 4 children aged in the 30 to 40 bracket have seemingly good jobs, as do their spouses. They all received higher education for which we were fortunate to provide. We have been able to save sufficiently for our old age, we think. We were confident that good things would flow until the last 10 years or so. Now we watch our spending even more because our children could lose their jobs at any time. So, I think angst is a part of all our lives now. I can only guess what goes through the minds of young people today. Someone has said that you can work more and harder to escape the rut, but with both parents working with young children to raise well, the sword is never far from the head.
picard102
Senior Member
That you've already lost before you started.
toraerach
Active Member
In addition to this, there are substantial barriers to those attempting to enter many high-demand professions. For example, many of the high-paying trades don't have the capacity (or, at least, the willingness) to meaningfully increase the number of apprenticeships available. While redirecting some university students to the trades might improve their lot on the individual level, we do not have the infrastructure to pipeline significantly more students to these careers. That said, were the number of students pursuing the trades to dramatically increase, we would likely see wages stagnating or dropping due to the new labour supply-vs-demand math.
It's even worse in healthcare, where governments have spent decades purposefully restricting access to higher education. This is especially true for physicians but applies to other professions as well. For example, we have a desperate need for rehab professionals like physiotherapists, occupational therapists and speech–language pathologists (among others). Despite significant interest in these professions, spaces in domestic MSc-level programs are few, and admissions are highly competitive even relative to peer countries. Indeed, a significant number of Canadian students interested in these professions go overseas (I am aware of a few programs in Australia and the UK where >50% are Canadian students), and many of them never come back. Unfortunately, we have gotten ourselves into a situation where many otherwise qualified, Canadian-trained individuals interested in further education to enter these professions are stuck working lower-paid jobs (e.g., kinesiologist, personal trainer, case manager, etc.).
T3G
Senior Member
Of the 30 or so people I graduated with in journalism back in 2018, I know of only 3 who have been able to get any work in the industry period, and all of them have been not stable office jobs, but ad hoc freelance work.
Could it be that all of us are unambitious bums? Or could it be that the world is a different place when it once was? We're not all intellectual enough to be doctors, lawyers, and engineers, and journalist used to once be a viable career option. So, for that matter, used to be shop clerk, which is what I've had to do since leaving school. Now it is neither paid enough to be something you can survive off of, nor is it well respected - retail workers are at the bottom of the social totem pole.
I'm planning on going back to school in September, now that the chaos and instability surrounding COVID and online school have finally stabilized, but that's tens of dollars of more student debt, and who knows if whatever field I end up choosing won't go implode on itself in the meantime, either. I'm seriously curious as to what you and the Admiral expected that I should have done. Was I supposed to foresee the near-extinction of local news media at the tender age of 18?
picard102
Senior Member
gabe
Senior Member
The big problem with trades these days is lot of young trades folks have go through private for-profit temp agencies, (which didn't exist years ago) and the pay is horrible and the benefits are limited. There is money is in the trades if you're established or in a union.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
You should give zero fcuks what I or anyone else expected you to do. Journalism would work well in sales, PR, and communications.
If I was a young man today I’d likely go to post-secondary school for a trade or languages, or if I was smart RMC, and then join the RCN. Or, perhaps given my British birth, had I decided to return after high school, the RN.
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afransen
Senior Member
I make a pretty decent income as an elder millenial, and I balk at using door dash and the like on a regular basis as an extravagance. It boggles my mind that low income folks and students use it almost daily. Then again, I am on track to pay off my mortgage this year after 8 years.
Northern Light
Superstar
Sure, some do, though again, I think its important not to generalize.
But additionally, we've been building these investor boxes that have minuscule kitchens w/little room to store food or cook; and we're often forcing people to work 50-hour weeks to get by, in combination, I have some sympathy for those that resort to such options.
Still, undoubtedly some make some poor choices w/money.
That's an involved discussion, and applies to people at all levels of income, but probably to low income earners moreso, as they often tend to have less financial literacy.
In the end, yes, some people could surely manage their situation better.
But that doesn't detract from the real issue of high housing costs and low wages.
lenaitch
Senior Member
Sure, it was a throw-away line, but you have to admit there are pretty strange, and inherently useless courses being offered out there although, admittedly, most are not offered as 'majors'. I have a niece-in-law who has a doctorate in 19th century French-Canadian female poets (going from memory but I'm not far off). Strangely, she couldn't find steady work outside of being TA. She's now in law school. Darned near 40 and still for a real job.
It would have to have been directed at the bankers, industrialists, etc. since private involvement in the stock market back then was almost unheard of.
*****
Good points all, as always. My position still stands that an unemployed or struggling P. Eng., teacher or pretty much anybody with marketable skills who isn't chasing every opportunity between Corner Brook and Kelowna, they have little sympathy from me.
That is a very real problem. In terms of the trades, I'm not sure what was chicken and what was egg. Did the industry simply loose interest in training their own or when the community colleges start offering courses in the trades did the industry see an opportunity to back out. Prior to community colleges and poly techs like George Brown, many of the trades had no options but to train their own (and originally, George Brown was the classroom component of many apprenticeships).
Really good point. I imagine buggy whip makers couldn't really foresee the impending sea change of the automobile. A question might be, even before the collapse of print journalism, could the industry have absorbed all 30 - and that's just one graduating class? Before courses for everything, I imagine you would get an entry-level job and work your way up. Post secondary education has become an industry unto itself. Many of the 'professional' courses are pumping out graduates that the industry can't absorb. As an example, fire fighting is a traditionally low turn-over profession and not significantly impacted by the economy and those courses are pumping out grads that the profession couldn't absorb in the best of times.
lenaitch
Senior Member
One problem people face with that type of path is that the trade you learn in the forces aren't recognized in civvy land in Canada. For sure, a great foundation, but there is no direct linkage. This is a solvable problem but that would require federal-provincial cooperation. A bit off topic, but couple this with the CAF rebranding itself as an 'interim career', where you do, say,10 years then go back to the economy with a marketable skill would benefit both recruiting and the economy. Right now, they still largely market themselves as a permanent career.