Admiral Beez
Superstar
That's dumb. I work in exchange for money to enjoy my free time and support my health. How else can one do otherwise.
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Premier Doug Ford's Ontario
- Thread starter animatronic
- Start date
lenaitch
Senior Member
I don't think anyone is saying that foreign students are anything new, just that the institutions viewing them as an income generator is relatively new.
Back in the day, tuition was tuition. When governments started regulating and then restriction tuition, the salve to the institutions to lessen the impact of reduced revenue was the de-regulation of foreign. This article says 1996. The institutions took to it like crack.
picard102
Senior Member
So is the advice that people just need to work more/harder.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Is this a poorly written question or your suggestion? Either way, yes. Unless you're a trust fun baby, if you want to enjoy your life you must work hard to get what you want.
picard102
Senior Member
This boomer advice is out of step with reality.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
I'm no boomer, and this advice holds for anyone. What's your alternative, lay flat in your parent's basement?
Tang ping - Wikipedia
In my business I meet daily with young professionals who through hardwork, education and moxie are hitting it out of the park. OTOH, there will always be losers who blame society and their lot in life on their circumstances, rather than their choices. But there are others, who exclaim f#ck that, and fight to get what they want out of life. Can't afford GTA housing, then move to where it's affordable? Can't find a job? Learn a skilled trade. Unless you're physically or mentally unfit to work, get on with it. Every young adult you see is facing the housing crisis, job crisis, economic uncertainty, etc. Some have a hand up from their parents or grandparents, most do not, but they all have to fight to get ahead, like humanity's always had to.
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lenaitch
Senior Member
Perhaps, particularly if one lives in a very high cost of living area and refuses to even consider relocating because of friends, family or 'why should I have to'. Our daughter and S-in-L are both millennials. They been together for about 14 years, married for 10. Neither grew up in a large urban area but both moved to pursue post-secondary that was geared to their respective career paths, not a BA 'just cuz'. Both are savers/smart spenders/bargain shoppers (he very much so). He's in IT so, of course, has a small business on the side (usually barter) and taught part-time for a few years. She makes a lot of her own clothes. If memory serves, they have taken two real vacations. They had planned to have their mortgage paid off in the next couple of years but a child came along and now they figure five more years. They made goals and worked towards them.
My crowd is Toronto-raised boomer and most of us left the GTA for at least a period of time to work.
Our friends' kids are Gen X (we started late), some living in the GTA, some not and all are doing quite well.
picard102
Senior Member
The reality is "hard work" no longer provides a living for the vast majority of people who don't have a head start. Decades of neoliberalism and capitalism have dangled this carrot in front of generations, and now the carrot is rotten.
T3G
Senior Member
It's funny, every older adult I've talked to in real life about the housing crisis seems to be of one mind: that today's young folk have worse odds than they did.
Anyway, all this stuff about hard work is a nice fantasy, but the reality most of the time is that the harder a person works at their job, the more of their physical and mental well being they give up in service of just trying to stay alive, the more destitute they're likely to be. With the housing market being the way it is, and how no politician of any party appears to be remotely interested in doing anything about it (this is by design), telling young people that all they need to do is work hard and they'll be fine is cruel and unusual.
Related viewing:
Anyway, all this stuff about hard work is a nice fantasy, but the reality most of the time is that the harder a person works at their job, the more of their physical and mental well being they give up in service of just trying to stay alive, the more destitute they're likely to be. With the housing market being the way it is, and how no politician of any party appears to be remotely interested in doing anything about it (this is by design), telling young people that all they need to do is work hard and they'll be fine is cruel and unusual.
Related viewing:
Admiral Beez
Superstar
T3G
Senior Member
I don't think watching videos from people telling me to pull myself up by the bootstraps is going to help me.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
I can see that you don't. But there will always be a video, commentator, comedian or influencer telling us that the world sucks - all while they profit quite nicely off of their viewers' growing anxiety. George Carlin told the world that capitalism was terrible - all while growing wealthy from those who hadn't the sense to look away, https://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/richest-comedians/george-carlin-net-worth/
Skip the propaganda from both sides and instead get on with life. What's the alternative?
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zang
Senior Member
I think it's hard for anyone to look at the history of the economy for almost 40 years to today and say it's been anywhere near as fortuitous for most people as it was from post-war to the 80s.
Stagnant wages, a shrinking middle class, exponentially growing wealth inequality, systematic demonization and destruction of workplace unionization, an economy that's shifted massively from manufacturing to (less valued) service, post-secondary education costs growing faster than inflation and far, far less support from employers—this has been the norm since about 1990.
Many are lucky to even get supplementary health insurance today.
Compare that to a retired Air Canada captain I know who's getting $135k a year pension. They had a gold-plated dental and health insurance plan, RRSP matching, group savings plan, free flights, huge discounts on travel, etc. Much of that has been whittled away over the years. Most new airline pilots nowadays start at a salary in 2024 less than what that pilot made when they started in the 1970s. NOTE; that's also not adjusted for inflation. It's literally less actual dollars per year.
There are even more pilots required now, a smaller overall pool relative to the jobs (there's been a shortage in Canada for years, and one projected to come for the U.S.), and higher education qualifications are needed (Air Canada now requires a Bachelor's). By all means, "the market" dictates they should be in high demand and paid even more now. Yeah.
That retired pilot's pension is more than enough to live off, let alone what they've accumulated in other retirement savings, CPP, etc. How many millennials get a pension?
There's a generation of privilege who expect everyone else should be able to be able to achieve what they did, let alone moderate sustainability. I know one millennial able to take even regular vacations, and they're the co-head of bariatric surgery at a major hospital making over $300k/yr. I know others who have to work two jobs (yes, even in "less expensive" towns), just to survive. Jobs outside of service industry don't much exist in less desirable areas, and the cost of housing is expensive everywhere now.
It is not the same as it was, and it's hard to argue anyone can just climb the ladder when the rungs keep getting smaller and smaller, and there are plenty of people above you who want to pull that ladder up.
Stagnant wages, a shrinking middle class, exponentially growing wealth inequality, systematic demonization and destruction of workplace unionization, an economy that's shifted massively from manufacturing to (less valued) service, post-secondary education costs growing faster than inflation and far, far less support from employers—this has been the norm since about 1990.
Many are lucky to even get supplementary health insurance today.
Compare that to a retired Air Canada captain I know who's getting $135k a year pension. They had a gold-plated dental and health insurance plan, RRSP matching, group savings plan, free flights, huge discounts on travel, etc. Much of that has been whittled away over the years. Most new airline pilots nowadays start at a salary in 2024 less than what that pilot made when they started in the 1970s. NOTE; that's also not adjusted for inflation. It's literally less actual dollars per year.
There are even more pilots required now, a smaller overall pool relative to the jobs (there's been a shortage in Canada for years, and one projected to come for the U.S.), and higher education qualifications are needed (Air Canada now requires a Bachelor's). By all means, "the market" dictates they should be in high demand and paid even more now. Yeah.
That retired pilot's pension is more than enough to live off, let alone what they've accumulated in other retirement savings, CPP, etc. How many millennials get a pension?
There's a generation of privilege who expect everyone else should be able to be able to achieve what they did, let alone moderate sustainability. I know one millennial able to take even regular vacations, and they're the co-head of bariatric surgery at a major hospital making over $300k/yr. I know others who have to work two jobs (yes, even in "less expensive" towns), just to survive. Jobs outside of service industry don't much exist in less desirable areas, and the cost of housing is expensive everywhere now.
It is not the same as it was, and it's hard to argue anyone can just climb the ladder when the rungs keep getting smaller and smaller, and there are plenty of people above you who want to pull that ladder up.
Northern Light
Superstar
With respect...........a one bedroom apartment in Vaughan........not in downtown, rosedale or The Beach........... is $2,000 a month or more (plus utilities, plus parking). In the City you're looking at ~$2,500, more in prime locations.
2/3 of the province lives in the Golden Horsehoe, we can't all move to North Bay for a lower cost of living.
Lots of people are single and don't have someone to split the bills with........... many grew up in single parent families that are less wealthy and have higher levels of student debt.
Its all well and good to say 'But you could just work two jobs.........or some OT for.....just a few years........live on a starvation budget, never rent more than the cheapest bachelor unit you can find, and then only if you're coupled up and have someone to split the bills with.......
But I think that's a completely unrealistic and unfair ask.
***
Sure there are folks who are doing ok who are under 50.........
But the number who aren't is substantial, and most aren't profligate. Its not the streaming subscriptions, avocado on toast, or door dash orders that are leaving them struggling to pay for the basics......... its low wages and the high cost of the basics.
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lenaitch
Senior Member
No doubt things are different and more difficult than in other times, but I'm not sure that's what everyone is saying. Simply blaming it on elders, as some are content to do is a bit disingenuous and rather pointless. I wonder if the people impacted by the Great Depression blamed it on their parents. For sure, there are a lot of people hurting, but maybe impoverishing themselves for a BA in Victorian gender studies was bad planning. On that note, my boomer generation should take a fair bit of blame for that by pushing kids towards obtaining general arts degrees that, in and of themselves, have proven to lead to very little. Other than doctors and lawyers, probably the most financially successful child of my circle is an electrician.
I'm also not saying that people can simply pick up a move. My point was towards those who simply refuse to consider it an option, whether for lifestyle, family, friends or whatever reason rather than taking every available opportunity. Even within the GTA, according to real estate boards, there are locations that are half the cost of Toronto.
The argument that millennials can't afford to take vacations might want to hang around Pearson before Christmas or at March break.