Premier Doug Ford's Ontario

[lenaitch]

Break it down further by provincial ridings? Which in turn means by city wards?

I can't imagine what a nightmare such a scheme would be to administer. Would the rate be based on where one worked or lived, considering that difference could entail which side of a street one lived on. Obviously, any line boundary would not be totally fair considering most economic issues are more gradual, but the finer the granularity gets to more unmanageable it would become.

Not directly related to any minimum wage legislation, but collective bargaining can often even out wages regardless of local cost of living depending on the scope of the bargaining unit.

 

[WislaHD]

If we are moving towards the direction of universal basic income, then I would probably look into scrapping the minimum wage altogether before having the headache of different minimum wage zones. Countries like Sweden and Norway function fine without one mandated by the state, see here.

 

[Northern Light]

If we are moving towards the direction of universal basic income, then I would probably look into scrapping the minimum wage altogether before having the headache of different minimum wage zones. Countries like Sweden and Norway function fine without one mandated by the state, see here.

If you read that link, the circumstances are very different.

In fact there are minimum wages that apply to over 90% of the population in all those countries.

The distinction is that they are imposed by unions in collective agreements.

Private-sector unionization in Canada is under 20%; in each of the above countries its north of 60% and much higher in a couple.

On top of which, the unions negotiate sectoral minimum wages and benefits that are generally legally binding even on non-union work places in the same sector.

So I would argue that this countries do in fact have minimum wages, it is certainly not free-market.

Rather what's different is how those minimum wages are imposed; and the fact they vary by sector.

The Swiss, as noted, also have minimum wages at the municipal level.

 

[WislaHD]

Rather what's different is how those minimum wages are imposed; and the fact they vary by sector.

Yes, that's why I linked the link. Bottom line is that they are more flexible. Point being that if we moved towards UBC, then it allows the opportunity to rethink how to be flexible with minimum wages too.

 

[Northern Light]

Yes, that's why I linked the link. Bottom line is that they are more flexible. Point being that if we moved towards UBC, then it allows the opportunity to rethink how to be flexible with minimum wages too.

The problem w/that is that minimum wages in those countries are substantially higher than any variant of Basic Income will be.

I just looked, a crew opening, not management, at a Stockholm area McDs is being advertised at 135 Kroner, per hour.

That's $28 CAD.

Thought of in Basic Income terms, roughly 58k per year or $4,800CAD per month.

Basic Income is not a good substitute for minimum wage.

Swedish Social Assistance is not as generous as a 40 hour work week at McDs.

Its roughly $1,740 CAD per month.

 

[afransen]

How much is a big mac? If it is indexed to pay, I'm guessing $13-$15.

 

[Northern Light]

How much is a big mac? If it is indexed to pay, I'm guessing $13-$15.

The combo is 84 Kroner; ~$17CAD

The Big Mac by itself is ~$8.50 CAD

Same combo ordered from Queen/Spadina appears to be $10.99 or $11CAD for comparison purposes.

So when you work it out............it looks something like.......

Wage 100% greater in Stockholm vs Toronto; cost of combo 65% greater.

That still puts the worker ahead decently.

 

[WislaHD]

Basic Income is not a good substitute for minimum wage.

It's not supposed to be. People are still intended to work and find employment with basic income. Basic income is a supplement not replacement to wages.

Minimum wages are a gross distortion of economics of labour and production, one that we have accepted because we believe that the societal benefits for increasing standard of living for low-wage labourers outweighs the many drawbacks associated with the minimum wage. However should a UBC be implemented, then the social advantages of the minimum wage are supplanted by UBC and we are left with just the economic disadvantages. A dual policy of implementing basic income and discarding minimum wages could allow the opportunity for wages to adjust themselves more efficiently across sectors and geographies throughout the province.

At least that is the argument I would be making if I was the Conservative party looking to cooperate with the Liberals on the introduction of UBC in Canada.

 

[Northern Light]

It's not supposed to be. People are still intended to work and find employment with basic income. Basic income is a supplement not replacement to wages.

Minimum wages are a gross distortion of economics of labour and production, one that we have accepted because we believe that the societal benefits for increasing standard of living for low-wage labourers outweighs the many drawbacks associated with the minimum wage. However should a UBC be implemented, then the social advantages of the minimum wage are supplanted by UBC and we are left with just the economic disadvantages. A dual policy of implementing basic income and discarding minimum wages could allow the opportunity for wages to adjust themselves more efficiently across sectors and geographies throughout the province.

At least that is the argument I would be making if I was the Conservative party looking to cooperate with the Liberals on the introduction of UBC in Canada.

We will have to disagree.

I would argue the minimum wage isn't at all distortive in Ontario as its below subsistence across the board.

I would argue the distortion is government programs subsidizing the cost of labour such that business can get away with paying so little.

Which isn't an argument against such subsidies when wages are so absurdly low.

It would be rather cruel to remove the subsidies, letting over 100,000 Ontarians starve to death or freeze on the streets, and then let the labour shortage drive pay up.

I would be in favour of lifting paid vacation to global norms of 4 weeks minimum and enforcing a 40-hour work week (not the current 44) in order to tighten labour supply and drive wages up that way.

But we still need a minimum wage at or near subsistence levels.

The notion that the there is a fair market wage at which the worker could be homeless or starving is not tenable to me.

 

[zang]

It's not supposed to be. People are still intended to work and find employment with basic income. Basic income is a supplement not replacement to wages.

Indeed. It's a catch-all catch-most, doesn't-need-to-be-applied-for safety net. I'm all for it, and it should be given to every single person, rich or poor.

For those with low income, it leaves people with a modest amount of income should they suddenly lose their job, have to pay for grand unforeseen expenses (funerals, etc.) or fluctuations in cost of living. It gives more incentive for people to stay home from work if they or their family member is ill (think of all the kids sent to school sick because a parent can't afford a day off). It also allows them to save some money for the future.

For those above the poverty line, it subsidizes the community in general through disposable income. More people with more money to spend going out to a restaurant a couple of times a month, buy a new TV, pay for any portion of or all dental/vision/pharma they may have to pay out of pocket. And again, it gives them a little extra money to save for the future.

It allows the arts to flourish, as most arts funding already does something similar already. This time though, artists don't need to spend countless hours searching for grants.

It allows better opportunities for children and increases family time. For single parents unable to afford day care, it means fewer latch key kids, as that same parent may be able to survive on UBI+part time work, vs full time that takes them away from home. Or alternatively, gives parents additional funding towards daycare or after school programs.

For the rich, they get richer (though not in any particularly meaningful way). Some might argue they shouldn't get it, but it should be an entitlement for everyone. Means testing just opens it up to additional costs of management as well as austerity or mismanagement on the part of ill-minded governments.

It is one of those rising tides that lifts all boats.

For those who may complain about it, just call it a "national dividend" instead of implying it's a replacement for working. The rich like dividends. The rest of us just like having a little extra money.

 

[WislaHD]

Thanks for articulating all that zang, fully agree which is why I support it, especially given that increased automization of the workforce is coming our way which will present new realities to reckon with. I think wage labour needs to be rethought of in general as we move past the legacy of the industrial age. The 40-hour work week is not the ideal work week in terms of productivity as many studies have shown in recent years, and I would be disappointed if the prospect of UBC didn't result in more flexible working arrangements.

For the rich, they get richer (though not in any particularly meaningful way). Some might argue they shouldn't get it, but it should be an entitlement for everyone. Means testing just opens it up to additional costs of management as well as austerity or mismanagement on the part of ill-minded governments.

I think even people well above the poverty line stand to benefit. It means they can take time off (or work less days per week) to pursue hobbies and passions (which could allow arts and cultural production to flourish) or to provide time to change career direction, focus on family life if that becomes priority, or to be encouraged to become an entrepreneur and start new business which can be incredibly time consuming and risky. Or maybe something so simple as more time to remain physically fit thus reducing national health care costs. So many positive incentives for all walks of life, as you made well put.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The problem with some interpretations of UBI is that it is coupled with a cut in other forms of assistance in order to fund the program - and those other forms of assistance would be completely unaffordable for purchase in the marketplace.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

A living wage in Toronto is ~$22 per hour, assuming 40 paid hours per week.

That's about $44,000 per year or $3,700 per month.

I have difficulty conceiving of the political reality that creates a basic income anywhere near that level.

We also have to delineate between a fixed amount paid to you to no matter what you earn; and one that may be reduced and/or clawed back as you earn more.

Again, I don't see a scenario where gov't cuts checks more than 75% above CERB levels in either scenario.

But I'd be further surprised if clawbacks weren't a feature of any program.

They are in GIS, and OW.

Plus, as @AlvinofDiaspar points out; basic income modelling is predicated on removing EI/OW/ODSP and supplementary health benefits that the rest of us don't get (drug/limited dental/vision)

I'm not opposed to some form of Basic Income, I just don't see it as something that would be implemented in such a way as the make the minimum wage obsolete.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

A living wage in Toronto is ~$22 per hour, assuming 40 paid hours per week.

That's about $44,000 per year or $3,700 per month.

I have difficulty conceiving of the political reality that creates a basic income anywhere near that level.

We also have to delineate between a fixed amount paid to you to no matter what you earn; and one that may be reduced and/or clawed back as you earn more.

Again, I don't see a scenario where gov't cuts checks more than 75% above CERB levels in either scenario.

But I'd be further surprised if clawbacks weren't a feature of any program.

They are in GIS, and OW.

Plus, as @AlvinofDiaspar points out; basic income modelling is predicated on removing EI/OW/ODSP and supplementary health benefits that the rest of us don't get (drug/limited dental/vision)

I'm not opposed to some form of Basic Income, I just don't see it as something that would be implemented in such a way as the make the minimum wage obsolete.

Basic income sounds good on paper - but it seemed like a way to make government to internalize the problem of inadequate wages - and the cost of that isn't going to be recovered through our low* corporate taxes (* if they are even paid).

AoD

 

[Johnny Au]

It allows the arts to flourish, as most arts funding already does something similar already. This time though, artists don't need to spend countless hours searching for grants.

For artists, there's Kickstarter, IndieGoGo, and Patreon, but very often, they are not enough for survival.

The same can be said about the vast majority of YouTubers and professional e-athletes.