Politics: Tim Hudak's Plan for Ontario if he becomes Premier

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Den: It is very true to some extent...and there is a long history of racial separation on LI...One of the best examples that I can think of is the blatant
denial of home sales to returning WW2 black veterans by the Levitt Corporation when Levittown was being built and developed - they ended up in what
turned out to be predominantly black settlements like North Amityville...

One of the best examples of a boundary between a well-to-do predominantly white community and a low-income primarily minority community is the
boundary between Garden City and Hempstead in central Nassau County - It amazes me how fast things change just crossing the Village lines...

I live in a integrated area myself - and which has been since I moved here from NYC in the late 1960s...LI MIKE

Ugly to hear. I always thought the south shore, Merrick, Wantagh, etc was the most segregated part.

WHEN? When they were built. The 1900s, 1910s, 1920, 1930s, 1940s ...

It's only after the car and Chicago started to sprawl, that property values started to drop, and were purchased by the poor, leading those that could to flee.

Keeping tight zoning controls, and limiting growth keeps downtown and near-downtown areas healthy.

Though I fear if urban sprawl was to be allowed in Toronto these days, given travel times, etc., that it wouldn't be the downtown and inner-downtown areas that would turn into the ghettos. But the outer 416 and inner 905 neighbourhoods. Brampton ... building the ghettos of tomorrow.

Would Hudak lead to this ... perhaps not ... but more so because of the geographic constraints than anything else.

So what are you arguing then? Does anyone disagree with this?

 

[Electrify]

Jumping in late here, so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but one key factor to suburbanization was to escape the industrial city. This is true for both after WWII (suburban sprawl and highway suburbs) and before WWII as well (garden cities, streetcar and railway suburbs). One key difference between pre and post war suburbanization, besides mode of travel, were the social classes which made up the suburbs. Before WWII, it was mostly the upper and maybe upper-middle classes who enjoyed suburban living. After the war, with the move to a Fordist economic model, suburbs became democratized as those from the growing middle class could afford to escape the noise and pollution of the industrial city.

It has only been in the last couple of decades with deindustrialization that the North American middle and upper classes have begun to rediscover urban living. And even then, outside of a few key metropolitan areas, the poor and lower-middle classes still make up the majority of urban dwellers.

 

[nfitz]

So what are you arguing then? Does anyone disagree with this?

I felt some were claiming that the key to deurbanization and inner-city collapse was primarily leading from racism, rather than unconstrained urban sprawl.

If that were true, it would be less likely to happen here than if it was a result of a lack of zoning and restrictions on development.

(though as I've noted, I think that Toronto is geographically constrained, that inner-city deurbanization is unlikely ... a softening in inner-city real-estate prices and suburban deurbanization is more likely.

 

[BurlOak]

There was a bunch of Hudak transit plans for Eglinton LRT in the Sheppard thread. I will continue it here.

I'd think they'd defer the entire project, as promised, until the budget is balanced and taxes are cut.

Which means they are just going to 'defer' the line east of Don Mills, and build nothing else.

They cannot defer the entire project because they would lose too much credibility in Toronto. Going from Mount Dennis to Yonge would be a possibility, but a real bad one - because it would make tunnelling the East more difficult with the extraction location no longer being available. Going to Don Mills is a more likely option, but it would require some (very welcome) changes to the West Don/Leslie area.

But I think this announcement today was only for the DRL, which would begin when the budget is balanced. I am not sure exactly what this means, but presumably it would be designed enough that its construction would be imminent and an election issue for 2018.

I think there will have to be another announcement on what will happen with Eglinton - because of the PC history with Eglinton, and the fact that it is causing so much traffic disruption now that it is on peoples minds. I would guess that Hudak will have to propose something a bit different from what is currently happening, just to show that he can do better than the Liberals. (I also think that the Scarborough subway will come up during the campaign).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I felt some were claiming that the key to deurbanization and inner-city collapse was primarily leading from racism, rather than unconstrained urban sprawl.

If that were true, it would be less likely to happen here than if it was a result of a lack of zoning and restrictions on development.

(though as I've noted, I think that Toronto is geographically constrained, that inner-city deurbanization is unlikely ... a softening in inner-city real-estate prices and suburban deurbanization is more likely.

Fair enough. I think it was both evenly, but to be honest if we lost Places to Grow and the Greenbelt, it would definitely change the landscape of the GTA permanently.

 

[nfitz]

They cannot defer the entire project because they would lose too much credibility in Toronto.

But he has made it very clear that he is elected that Eglinton is dead. He has repeatedly over the years said he would cancel the LRT lines.

And he spoke again today. He was crystal clear. He said Toronto get's one big project, and that would be a downtown express line, running east west, south of Bloor, and connecting to the Bloor line. It's pretty clearly the Downtown Relief Line that he'll fund, and not the Eglinton line.

Why do people keep insisting that Hudak is suddenly going to break his promises and drop $4 billion on the Eglinton line, when he has made it very clear that he won't be doing that?

If you don't believe me, go to YouTube, and listen to the very words he said today:

[video=youtube;gwzzM613UxE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwzzM613UxE[/video]

 

[SJD_Toronto]

But he has made it very clear that he is elected that Eglinton is dead. He has repeatedly over the years said he would cancel the LRT lines.

And he spoke again today. He was crystal clear. He said Toronto get's one big project, and that would be a downtown express line, running east west, south of Bloor, and connecting to the Bloor line. It's pretty clearly the Downtown Relief Line that he'll fund, and not the Eglinton line.

Why do people keep insisting that Hudak is suddenly going to break his promises and drop $4 billion on the Eglinton line, when he has made it very clear that he won't be doing that?

If you don't believe me, go to YouTube, and listen to the very words he said today:

[video=youtube;gwzzM613UxE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwzzM613UxE[/video]

Eglinton isn't going anywhere. The project is too far along. If Hudak kills anything, it's the Sheppard East and Finch West LRTs.

 

[King of Kensington]

One key difference between pre and post war suburbanization, besides mode of travel, were the social classes which made up the suburbs. Before WWII, it was mostly the upper and maybe upper-middle classes who enjoyed suburban living. After the war, with the move to a Fordist economic model, suburbs became democratized as those from the growing middle class could afford to escape the noise and pollution of the industrial city.

True though there were also industrial satellite type suburbs that developed: such as Mount Dennis and the lakeshore communities here, Melrose Park and Chicago Heights etc.

 

[Hopkins123]

But he has made it very clear that he is elected that Eglinton is dead. He has repeatedly over the years said he would cancel the LRT lines.

And he spoke again today. He was crystal clear. He said Toronto get's one big project, and that would be a downtown express line, running east west, south of Bloor, and connecting to the Bloor line. It's pretty clearly the Downtown Relief Line that he'll fund, and not the Eglinton line.

Why do people keep insisting that Hudak is suddenly going to break his promises and drop $4 billion on the Eglinton line, when he has made it very clear that he won't be doing that?

If you don't believe me, go to YouTube, and listen to the very words he said today:

But the Eglinton Crosstown is already fully funded for (Mt Dennis to Kennedy). Also Hudak repeatedly uses the phrase "subways and LRTs" in that video. It doesn't sound to me like he's threatening to cancel anything so much as he's committing to the DRL as the #1 new priority. The Crosstown and presumably the Scarborough subway would continue as planned.

 

[King of Kensington]

So will Hudak get shut out in Toronto or will Holyday retain his seat?

 

[nfitz]

Eglinton isn't going anywhere. The project is too far along. If Hudak kills anything, it's the Sheppard East and Finch West LRTs.

Why would you say that when Hudak has said otherwise?

How is it far along? They've tendered less than 10% of the project. It's far less in $ than Hudak was willing to throw away on Gas Plants if he was elected last time.

But the Eglinton Crosstown is already fully funded for (Mt Dennis to Kennedy). Also Hudak repeatedly uses the phrase "subways and LRTs" in that video. It doesn't sound to me like he's threatening to cancel anything so much as he's committing to the DRL as the #1 new priority. The Crosstown and presumably the Scarborough subway would continue as planned.

He talked about uploading LRTs from TTC. He couldn't have been talking about Crosstown there. I'd think it was a reference to the SRT - and he's simply too ignorant to understand it. He made a few other factual errors while speaking too.

It's fully funded by the Ontario government. The Ontario government can always pull the plug. Hudak has previously said he will pull the plug. 90% of the money hasn't been contracted yet.

I fail to see why anyone is thinking that Hudak will continue building this LRT project.

 

[ehlow]

But he has made it very clear that he is elected that Eglinton is dead. He has repeatedly over the years said he would cancel the LRT lines.

And he spoke again today. He was crystal clear. He said Toronto get's one big project, and that would be a downtown express line, running east west, south of Bloor, and connecting to the Bloor line. It's pretty clearly the Downtown Relief Line that he'll fund, and not the Eglinton line.

Why do people keep insisting that Hudak is suddenly going to break his promises and drop $4 billion on the Eglinton line, when he has made it very clear that he won't be doing that?

If you don't believe me, go to YouTube, and listen to the very words he said today:

Please show some source or reference where, in your words, "he has made it very clear that he is elected that Eglinton is dead."

I just spent 12 minutes watching the clip you posted (which was not fun) and he does not mention Eglinton at all or cancelling Eglinton in the clip you posted. The only "announcement" was that he vaguely wants some form of east-west subway south of Bloor, which I'm assuming refers to the DRL. I don't see how you could draw the conclusion that because he wants to start & fund the DRL next, he would cancel Eglinton. Eglinton is already funded and well underway.

In fact, from what I remember, his only statement on Eglinton so far was that he would "bury it as much as possible". He could certainly shorten it by not doing the eastern section, or do the whole thing underground, but unless you show us something, he has never said he would cancel the underground section.

 

[salsa]

Brampton ... building the ghettos of tomorrow.

+1

 

[ehlow]

Hudak has previously said he will pull the plug. 90% of the money hasn't been contracted yet.

I fail to see why anyone is thinking that Hudak will continue building this LRT project.

Show us where he has said that he would cancel Eglinton.

Straight from the Ontario PC website:

http://ontariopc.com/files/cities-white-paper.pdf

We support a full, effective subway system for
Scarborough – including the Bloor-Danforth extension,
burying the Eglinton Crosstown as much as possible and
extending the Sheppard subway stump to Scarborough
City Centre.

Burying the Eglinton Crosstown as much as possible. That's not cancelling it.

 

[nfitz]

Please show some source or reference where, in your words, "he has made it very clear that he is elected that Eglinton is dead."

He has said this on several occasions since early 2012 when he thought the government could fall. Most previously before the election in talking to the Globe and Mail http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...crap-lrts-as-ontario-premier/article15113241/ where he is reported to have pledged that he would "cancel a raft of suburban LRTs in favour of extending Toronto’s subway system." He has had ample opportunity in that 2-year period to say he wouldn't stop Eglinton. He has not done this.

I just spent 12 minutes watching the clip you posted (which was not fun) and he does not mention Eglinton at all or cancelling Eglinton in the clip you posted. The only "announcement" was that he vaguely wants some form of east-west subway south of Bloor, which I'm assuming refers to the DRL.

He said that Toronto get's ONE big project. Vaguely like the DRL? An east-west line that connects to the Bloor line (I'm sure he meant Bloor-Danforth ... but I doubt he's ever ridden that far on it ...), south of Bloor, to relieve the Yonge Line. He mentions Pape as a possibility at one end, and leaves the western end open. He says TTC has done preliminary numbers on it. This sounds vaguely like the Downtown Relief Line? This sounds exactly like the Downtown Relief Line. In what way is this vague?

I don't see how you could draw the conclusion that because he wants to start & fund the DRL next, he would cancel Eglinton. Eglinton is already funded and well underway.

The Sheppard LRT and Finch West LRT are also already funded. Do you think he'll build that too? The Eglinton Line is NOT well underway. It's a $4.5 billion project, and only $0.5 billion has been tendered for the tunnels. The big contract doesn't go out until AFTER the election. And for the $497 million of tunnelling, it's for 3 large segments. The first (west) segment is now being tunneled. They've barely started scratching the surface for the portal of the second segment (east), and the middle segment is untouched. They could likely terminate the existing contracts with penalties, and simply end up with a short piece of tunnel in the west, that could then be preserved for a future project.

In fact, from what I remember, his only statement on Eglinton so far was that he would "bury it as much as possible". He could certainly shorten it by not doing the eastern section, or do the whole thing underground, but unless you show us something, he has never said he would cancel the underground section.

Your deluding yourself. Why are you so desperately trying to convince us that he is going to do something, when his own words say the opposite?