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Politics: Tim Hudak's Plan for Ontario if he becomes Premier

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Hipster Duck said:
TOareaFan, your position on this is coloured by the fact that you are opposed to the Hurontario LRT. Regardless of what you think about that project, think about the stupidity of Hudak's decision for his own purpose: winning the election.
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I think you need to go back to the lengthy discussions about the H-LRT....I am not opposed to it at all...what I have stated is that the northern portion of it is an overbuilding of transit for the corridor and, in particular, the portion in Brampton is pointless. I fully agree with the Mayor of Mississauga when she says the LRT is necessary from Mississauga City Centre to Port Credit. I would just stop it at the Mississauga Busway.

That said, my discussion here has not been about any particular transit corridor, it has just been on the pattern of politicians amending their platforms with the whims of public opinion polls. All I said was that I don't think cancelling the H-LRT will lose him too many votes because I don't think it really is a core issue that too many Mississaugians think too much, or passionately, about.
 
Do you guys honestly believe that MiWay is some small, insignificant system that hardly anyone in Mississauga cares about improving? Especially for the busiest, most overcrowded route in the system (and the 905)? No offense, but that's just ignorant.
 
Regarding the Kitchener LRT, it was intended as a reurbanization tool, and has so far lived up to that task. There are numerous high density residential infill projects currently underway in both Kitchener and Waterloo. Millions of dollars have been invested in this project. For Hudak to cancel it at this point would be a slap in the face to taxpayers of Waterloo Region, who've spent so much $$ on this project to date.

...Why are politicians so short sighted...
 
We all saw how much efficiencies Ford was able to find to build subways in Toronto. Building all the transit we need through efficiencies is akin to just build nothing.
 
TFC said:
Regarding the Kitchener LRT, it was intended as a reurbanization tool, and has so far lived up to that task. There are numerous high density residential infill projects currently underway in both Kitchener and Waterloo. Millions of dollars have been invested in this project. For Hudak to cancel it at this point would be a slap in the face to taxpayers of Waterloo Region, who've spent so much $$ on this project to date.

...Why are politicians so short sighted...
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I don't think he would touch the K-W LRT. That whole region is a swing area, with some very tight ridings. It would be foolish of him to cancel an underway transit project that the people want. That type of political pandering may work in Scarborough, but I don't think it would work in K-W.

As for the Ottawa LRT, by the time an election is called (probably next Spring), tunnelling will be about 1/5th completed, and work on the M&SF will be underway. That project passed the point of no return a while ago.
 
TOareaFan said:
I think you need to go back to the lengthy discussions about the H-LRT....I am not opposed to it at all...what I have stated is that the northern portion of it is an overbuilding of transit for the corridor and, in particular, the portion in Brampton is pointless. I fully agree with the Mayor of Mississauga when she says the LRT is necessary from Mississauga City Centre to Port Credit. I would just stop it at the Mississauga Busway.
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Okay, true. Sorry about that.

That said, my discussion here has not been about any particular transit corridor, it has just been on the pattern of politicians amending their platforms with the whims of public opinion polls.
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But I don't think that Tim Hudak is that kind of politician, either. Building subways and canceling funded, contracted LRT plans is a purely populist gesture. Heck, if you replaced the words "building subways" with "canceling gas plants" you would have the McGuinty Liberals. The difference, of course, was that canceling gas plants was actually popular. Canceling LRT plans in the 905 to build unnecessary subways in Toronto is neither a revenue gain nor popular. It's contradictory to the whole philosophy of being a conservative, and it won't fire up his base.

All I said was that I don't think cancelling the H-LRT will lose him too many votes because I don't think it really is a core issue that too many Mississaugians think too much, or passionately, about.
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I don't think it's the LRT that Mississaugans will be up in arms about, it's the fact that they're going from getting something to getting absolutely nothing, while Toronto goes from getting something to getting absolutely everything.

So far in this LRT saga, people in Ford Nation have at least been suckered into thinking that if they kill their established LRT plans they'll get a subway. Hudak is promising Mississaugans (but also people in Durham, in York, and, of course, the H-LRT runs in Brampton too) that he will kill their LRT plan and replace it with nothing. Meanwhile, he'll direct that money to Toronto and take over their highway system, too, so that Torontonians can drive on shiny new roads.
 
Hipster Duck said:
Okay, true. Sorry about that.







So far in this LRT saga, people in Ford Nation have at least been suckered into thinking that if they kill their established LRT plans they'll get a subway. Hudak is promising Mississaugans (but also people in Durham, in York, and, of course, the H-LRT runs in Brampton too) that he will kill their LRT plan and replace it with nothing. Meanwhile, he'll direct that money to Toronto and take over their highway system, too, so that Torontonians can drive on shiny new roads.
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That is all true....but, don't forget, it is not just LRTs he is cancelling it is the proposed revenue tools. There will be a significant number of residents of suburbs (those that never ride transit and never plan to) that will see it as a net gain...losing the shiny new toy of the transit folks and losing the taxes/fees/tolls that were going to pay for it.

People i talk to out here in 905land tell me their biggest fear is that they are going to pay fees/taxes/tolls and all the talk about transit priorities are subways (SRT replacement, eventual Sheppard East replacement and DRL)...it is an easier sell to anyone (but, to be fair, moreso in 905) to say "we won't raise your taxes or fees/tolls/etc...but the trade off is you won't get a LRT" than it is to say "you will get new taxes/fees/tolls/etc. and for the first 10 years or so we will spend most of that inside Toronto."

Again, there are more people in Mississauga that will pay those proposed new fees but never ride the LRT than there are that will ride the LRT and not be touched by the revenue tools.....it is my bet that this is the vote calc that Hudak and the Tories are making.
 
So Mississauga and Kitchener are both swing areas where transit can or is a hot issue, so it will likely cost Hudak seats there. Hamilton is a pretty solid Liberal/NDP area so no loss to him there.

York Region is pretty neutral about transit, so him canceling the BRTs could go either way, though odds are that it may go in his favour since I could see some being seduced into voting PC - despite it only going to the south border.

Durham's full BRT implementation unfortunately won't mean much to those voters, so he'll have nothing to lose by canceling it.

North Toronto could be interesting. However after the last federal election, where northern Scarborough went NDP and northern Etobicoke, the capital of Ford Nation, remained Liberal, I think they are more open to light rail than some would have you think.
 
TOareaFan said:
People i talk to out here in 905land tell me their biggest fear is that they are going to pay fees/taxes/tolls and all the talk about transit priorities are subways (SRT replacement, eventual Sheppard East replacement and DRL)...it is an easier sell to anyone (but, to be fair, moreso in 905) to say "we won't raise your taxes or fees/tolls/etc...but the trade off is you won't get a LRT" than it is to say "you will get new taxes/fees/tolls/etc. and for the first 10 years or so we will spend most of that inside Toronto."

Again, there are more people in Mississauga that will pay those proposed new fees but never ride the LRT than there are that will ride the LRT and not be touched by the revenue tools.....it is my bet that this is the vote calc that Hudak and the Tories are making.
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Okay, but wouldn't the default answer be for Hudak to cancel everything in Toronto as well? Otherwise 905ers will think that, while they don't have to pay, Toronto still reaps the benefits and they don't.

Personally, I think his subways proposal is really skating on political thin ice. Canceling every single 905 transit expansion project will not even cover the costs of building Finch and Sheppard as subways, and is it really worth staking all that political capital to guarantee that a handful of 416ers get an underground ride from Finch and Keele to Humber College?
 
On odd move of Hudak to cancel suburban transit to instead focus on more subway lines and GO Trains in downtown Toronto.

Downtowners win I guess.

I'm not seeing what the suburbs get out of this ... no new roads and no new transit.
 
nfitz said:
On odd move of Hudak to cancel suburban transit to instead focus on more subway lines and GO Trains in downtown Toronto.

Downtowners win I guess.

I'm not seeing what the suburbs get out of this ... no new roads and no new transit.
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I didn't see it in the article. Is Hudak proposing improving GO only in the city of Toronto. GO improvements are the most appealling form of transit spending to most people in the 905.

Also, if you say that no new roads, I suppose you are suggesting that the 905 does not benefit from the Gardiner reconstruction.
 
Hipster Duck said:
Personally, I think his subways proposal is really skating on political thin ice. Canceling every single 905 transit expansion project will not even cover the costs of building Finch and Sheppard as subways, and is it really worth staking all that political capital to guarantee that a handful of 416ers get an underground ride from Finch and Keele to Humber College?
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He is not cancelling GO improvements - what the suburbs want the most.

Also, from the article, there is no talk about a subway on Sheppard or Finch.

from the article; "He wants to build the downtown relief line – the TTC’s priority project – extend the Bloor-Danforth subway in Scarborough and bring the Yonge line north to Richmond Hill."
 
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