Politics: Tim Hudak's Plan for Ontario if he becomes Premier

[Solid Snake]

Voters are mainly drivers...

Who hate gridlock. And would prefer to take transit if they had the reasonable possibility of doing so.

and how would local LRT help them, knowing that most of them takes the highways to work in Toronto or across the GTA? A GO train system like the National Rail Service in London and the RER in Paris is the reason why drivers don't drive over there to go to work, not the Paris LRT (streetcars really) or the DLR. Being able to access the main city and working areas in a region with a reliable mode of transit that is fast, comfortable and convenient in term of schedule is key.

LRT will never achieve that. The Lakeshore line being half and hour or less both ways 7 days a week, is a HUGE accomplishment that puts the GO train in the NSR and RER territory. Now all that's needed is for the lines to be electrified so the trains can travel faster and be more frequent on all the lines and more infrastructure for parking and stations, Then, and only then, gridlock will drop. Local LRT in Kitchener, Hamilton and Mississauga won't do that. All they do is using billions of dollars that could improve the GO system faster.

Who would give up driving for a 200$ + dollars a month for a Regional pass that limits your access to a train, to your choice of destinations, slow trains (compare to Europe, GO is slow), overcrowded trains and once you do make it to Union, the subway is overcrowded and frequent interruption of service? Some do, but not enough of them do and LRT won't change anything.

LRT are good but not ahead of a better subway and GO Train network. That's how London and Paris has done it. They did that first and then went to light rail to complement their core service.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

London and Paris and New York all had streetcars first though. Hudak just said he would build one new line vs Wynne's 4.

 

[flonicky]

The only reason this is a debate is because Harris cancelled the system's extended subway backbone and established the idea that we couldn't afford subways, leading to the various LRT proposals. Hudak's support of subways is a bit rich at this point in the game. The maps speak volumes. Hudak's plan is -- AGAIN -- to cancel transit expansion. And this is only his proposal. We could probably expect a further reduction after he gets elected.

We're just starting to catch up and try to address the gridlock from the Harris era cancellations and Hudak would set us right back again. Imagine the gridlock after a Hudak government. Unbelievable.

 

[innsertnamehere]

and how would local LRT help them, knowing that most of them takes the highways to work in Toronto or across the GTA? A GO train system like the National Rail Service in London and the RER in Paris is the reason why drivers don't drive over there to go to work, not the Paris LRT (streetcars really) or the DLR. Being able to access the main city and working areas in a region with a reliable mode of transit that is fast, comfortable and convenient in term of schedule is key.

LRT will never achieve that. The Lakeshore line being half and hour or less both ways 7 days a week, is a HUGE accomplishment that puts the GO train in the NSR and RER territory. Now all that's needed is for the lines to be electrified so the trains can travel faster and be more frequent on all the lines and more infrastructure for parking and stations, Then, and only then, gridlock will drop. Local LRT in Kitchener, Hamilton and Mississauga won't do that. All they do is using billions of dollars that could improve the GO system faster.

Who would give up driving for a 200$ + dollars a month for a Regional pass that limits your access to a train, to your choice of destinations, slow trains (compare to Europe, GO is slow), overcrowded trains and once you do make it to Union, the subway is overcrowded and frequent interruption of service? Some do, but not enough of them do and LRT won't change anything.

LRT are good but not ahead of a better subway and GO Train network. That's how London and Paris has done it. They did that first and then went to light rail to complement their core service.

Why not both? The big move includes huge GO upgrades, and beloved it or not, people live and do use the corridors that the LRTs will travel on. You need a way to get to GO, or your job that is just off of hurontario. LRTs don't handle cross regional traffic, true, but they handle local traffic which is absolutely still traffic. Building the LRT is just part of the solution, you need to realize. Go will be 2 way all day on all lines I the current plan, lakeshore will be electrified along with Kitchener. Subways such as the DRL and Yonge extension and Scarborough extension will be built, and the corridors such as finch and Sheppard and Eglinton and hurontario that already have high ridership and need higher capacity will get LRTs to allow for continued growth along the corridors. Your view seems to be that of fixing regional travel only, when we can easily fix both. It's not like the big move ignore regional traffic, it spends the majority of it's fining on it. But it doesn't ignore local traffic either, where it spend 1/10th of its total budget on two LRT lines to relieve overloaded bus routes and to encourage more urban development forms.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

This whole Hurontario LRT vs. GO debate is comparing apples to oranges - the line is proposed not because of some magical, non-existing ridership that will materialize if it's built - it's the logical step to increasing service on a line that has more or less grown beyond buses. How will diverting resources to GO or subway provide comparable service on that route?

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

This whole Hurontario LRT vs. GO debate is comparing apples to oranges - the line is proposed not because of some magical, non-existing ridership that will materialize if it's built - it's the logical step to increasing service on a line that has more or less grown beyond buses. How will diverting resources to GO or subway provide comparable service on that route?

AoD

I think, here, the GO v LRT was a tangential one rising out of the notion that Hudak was/is risking voters in, for example, Mississauga if he cancels the LRT. Some are saying he won't because that is not the transit focus of the voters.

I am saying he won't because transit is not the focus of most of the voters.

 

[Solid Snake]

Why not both?

People will likely vote against Wynne taxes (as if her party's scandals weren't bad enough). Good luck convincing the 905 and torontonians outside of downtown to absorb a tax increase.
Hudak lacks the courage to impose tolls on the DVP and Gardiner like other major cities have done.

The big move includes huge GO upgrades, and beloved it or not, people live and do use the corridors that the LRTs will travel on.

Your huge GO improvements will be within 15-25 years. The billions being sunk in local LRT that BRT could give comparable service, would accelerate the GO improvements that should have been there yesterday

You need a way to get to GO, or your job that is just off of hurontario. LRTs don't handle cross regional traffic, true, but they handle local traffic which is absolutely still traffic.

GO Network and the TTC have a bigger ridership than the LRT lines and both service are underfunded and underdeveloped. GO and the Subway can reduce Regional gridlock especially if they were better integrated like whenever the two system touch each other, there should be a station like Oriole and Leslie Subway station...Such a waste of potential

BRT is cheaper and just can be just as effective as LRT and faster to implement.

Finch has no reserved lane and no express branch. With the new articulate buses combined with express branch and reserved lane, Finch's service level would be drastically improved. The LRT doesn't even make it to Yonge street while the BRT could service all of Finch.

I admit that I don't know enough about Hurontario. It was attractive due to its connection to Eglinton Crosstown. Will it go to Pearson? A line from Pearson to the GO station via the Crosstown makes sense and should be build.

Kitchener and Hamilton LRT? Surely BRT can do the job. I don't by the notion of gridlock over there.

Building the LRT is just part of the solution, you need to realize. Go will be 2 way all day on all lines I the current plan, lakeshore will be electrified along with Kitchener. Subways such as the DRL and Yonge extension and Scarborough extension will be built, and the corridors such as finch and Sheppard and Eglinton and hurontario that already have high ridership and need higher capacity will get LRTs to allow for continued growth along the corridors. Your view seems to be that of fixing regional travel only, when we can easily fix both. It's not like the big move ignore regional traffic, it spends the majority of it's fining on it. But it doesn't ignore local traffic either, where it spend 1/10th of its total budget on two LRT lines to relieve overloaded bus routes and to encourage more urban development forms.

If we were in a system where the Federal government was a constant partner and we had a steady stream of revenue, then both should be built at the same time. Unfortunately, it isn't the case. We live in a system where you have to chose. Build all over the place and gridlock will decrease within 25 years or build GO and Subways now to tackle on Gridlock ASAP. The later, would give results faster.

 

[TOareaFan]

I admit that I don't know enough about Hurontario. It was attractive due to its connection to Eglinton Crosstown. Will it go to Pearson? A line from Pearson to the GO station via the Crosstown makes sense and should be build.

You may not, even, be aware of where Hurontario is

How would it, either, connect to the airport or the Eglinton Crosstown?

 

[Solid Snake]

You may not, even, be aware of where Hurontario is

How would it, either, connect to the airport or the Eglinton Crosstown?

I stand corrected
But After looking at the ridership projection numbers for 2031, would have worked as well

 

[TrickyRicky]

I do think that cancellation of LRT will not lose Hudak voters. Remember he can't gain left-of-centre voters. To right leaning voters (his voters) cancellation of LRT will be neutral or maybe even slightly positive so the political calculation is relatively sound.

The negative part of the political calculation is if he promotes the DRL too strongly. The idea of tax money going to fund downtown transit could lose him support amongst his base. The Scarborough extension is import and likely to be the priority. However, next I think he will push the Yonge extension. The DRL would likely be something to just mention as happening in the ambiguous future if revenue materializes magically.

 

[Electrify]

In the famous words of Barack Obama...

Please proceed.

Hurricane Hazel wants the LRT to be part of her legacy. If Hudak is set to shut it down, she will have no problems drumming up support to vote against him, costing the PCs much needed support in Mississauga.

 

[js97]

In the famous words of Barack Obama...

Please proceed.

Hurricane Hazel wants the LRT to be part of her legacy. If Hudak is set to shut it down, she will have no problems drumming up support to vote against him, costing the PCs much needed support in Mississauga.

Are there that many PC votes in Mississauga?

It looks like's Hudak's direction is to completely ignore hamilton/Missisauga area and concentrate on winning a few seats in the GTA. I get the Shepperd subway extension, where he may be able to get a few votes in scarborough, but DRL?

I can't see any of the downtown ridings turning blue, even for the DRL

With his leadership at stake (and the PC's handed 3 potential opportunities since McGuinty's first term) he's really going for a bit of the Hail mary. The problem is credibility. Will he come across as credible in being able to do this? and will Hurricane Hazel drum up enough support in the Mississauga area that it would cost him votes (Mayor Hazel was a big supporter of Charles Sousa, so I can see why there is not much love between her and Hudak)

 

[Solid Snake]

In the famous words of Barack Obama...

Please proceed.

Hurricane Hazel wants the LRT to be part of her legacy. If Hudak is set to shut it down, she will have no problems drumming up support to vote against him, costing the PCs much needed support in Mississauga.

He could always say that he was listening to the Brampton mayor who thought BRT made more sense. Brampton mayor did say:

Fennell publicly called Metrolinx’s 11 proposed revenue tools to pay for the Big Move’s annual $2-billion bill, “job killers.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201..._stuns_mississauga_mayor_hazel_mccallion.html

Brampton mayor’s last-minute LRT alternative stuns Mississauga Mayor Hazel McCallion
Brampton Mayor Susan Fennell proposes sending a Brampton Zum bus line down Hurontario St. to the Mississauga waterfront, mimicking the planned LRT along the same route.


I can see Hudak slogan in Mississauga being:

BRT=no tax increase with service starting very soon
VS
Big move with LRT= 11 revenue tools, hundreds of extra tax dollars per household per year

A BRT being a fraction of the LRT price saving residents from paying more taxes will get way more support than you think. Drivers are the silent majority and they will prefer that over transit enthusiasts willing to be taxed mor just to see LRT in the middle of Hurontario.

 

[innsertnamehere]

polling seems to suggest otherwise solid snake, the liberals are still polling even with the PCs.

 

[TOareaFan]

He could always say that he was listening to the Brampton mayor who thought BRT made more sense. Brampton mayor did say:



http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201..._stuns_mississauga_mayor_hazel_mccallion.html

Brampton mayor’s last-minute LRT alternative stuns Mississauga Mayor Hazel McCallion
Brampton Mayor Susan Fennell proposes sending a Brampton Zum bus line down Hurontario St. to the Mississauga waterfront, mimicking the planned LRT along the same route.


I can see Hudak slogan in Mississauga being:

BRT=no tax increase with service starting very soon
VS
Big move with LRT= 11 revenue tools, hundreds of extra tax dollars per household per year

A BRT being a fraction of the LRT price saving residents from paying more taxes will get way more support than you think. Drivers are the silent majority and they will prefer that over transit enthusiasts willing to be taxed mor just to see LRT in the middle of Hurontario.

Bit out of date with that Fennell quote .....it was all clarified between the Mayors within days and it turns out what she actually proposed was a temprorary extension of the Zum while the LRT was being built. She has been, and is, a supporter of the LRT. San Grewal has never missed an opportunity to make Susan Fennell look bad....and even though I disagree with the Mayor of Brampton in supporting this LRT....she deserves fairer treatment than that (and Grewal, to my knowledge, never wrote the clarification stories that appeared in the next couple of days in the Mississauga and Brampton papers).

Both of the City Mayors in Peel want the LRT.

She does, however, agree with the Tories on the subject of the revenue tools.