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PM Justin Trudeau's Canada

Northern Light said:
For those lacking previews and the click-averse, the above is a clip of Federal Minister Miller who in answering in Question Period referred to Foreign Students as an asset that is very lucrative.

That is an all-too honest answer about how they are perceived by both the Federal and Provincial governments; one that omits the word 'exploited' and fails to consider the externalities on such things as housing.
Click to expand...
I'm fine with the universities using international students as a cash cow. Otherwise we'd be paying more in taxes and tuition to keep our postsec schools running. I just want those schools that provide the visa to provide housing.
 
Admiral Beez said:
I'm fine with the universities using international students as a cash cow. Otherwise we'd be paying more in taxes and tuition to keep our postsec schools running. I just want those schools that provide the visa to provide housing.
Click to expand...

Maybe..........but.

1) They aren't providing the housing, and they likely won't as the students are no long cash cows, or at least not in the same measure and extent, if you're supplying them below-market housing. Which to be clear is what student housing is meant to be, because why would a student live on campus in a much smaller than normal unit at full market prices?

2) The majority of foreign students are not in Universities. They're in community colleges and/or diploma mills of some other description.

3) Ontario provides 44% less funding per domestic student than the median of other provinces. That really is exceedingly bad, and it can't not affect the quality of education on offer and the number of domestic study spots as well.
 
Admiral Beez said:
I'm fine with the universities using international students as a cash cow. Otherwise we'd be paying more in taxes and tuition to keep our postsec schools running. I just want those schools that provide the visa to provide housing.
Click to expand...

The problem is that this is the slippery slope they slid down. They've become so dependent on foreign students that they don't care much about education quality or service to Canadian students anymore. Keep in mind that in a lot of institutions even if international students are 30% of the student body, they are 50% of the revenue. And they are paying to get a visa. The students know this. The schools know this. Incentives are aligned to push these students through as quickly and easily as possible. The days of foreign students coming here for their Master's or PhD is quaint.

Put it this way, at this point our education sector is mostly about exploiting foreign students to keep a bunch of administrators, support staff and low skilled faculty (in colleges) in cushy jobs, while helping these students backdoor into residency.
 
kEiThZ said:
Put it this way, at this point our education sector is mostly about exploiting foreign students to keep a bunch of administrators, support staff and low skilled faculty (in colleges) in cushy jobs, while helping these students backdoor into residency.
Click to expand...
Good points all round. Given how lucative foreign students are I wonder how Laurentian University drove themselves to near bankruptcy.

2021 Laurentian University financial crisis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org


"There is a general expectation that public sector andbroader public sector organizations that receive significant taxpayer funds operate with transparency,accountability and high standards of governance.Our review of Laurentian University’s operations anddecision-making over the past decade provides a striking example of what can happen when these principlesare neglected."
 
Admiral Beez said:
Good points all round. Given how lucative foreign students are I wonder how Laurentian University drove themselves to near bankruptcy.

2021 Laurentian University financial crisis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org


"There is a general expectation that public sector andbroader public sector organizations that receive significant taxpayer funds operate with transparency,accountability and high standards of governance.Our review of Laurentian University’s operations anddecision-making over the past decade provides a striking example of what can happen when these principlesare neglected."
Click to expand...
I think the sad truth is that not even foreigners saw Sudbury as attractive.

(btw, I do like Sudbury personally)
 
JasonParis said:
I think the sad truth is that not even foreigners saw Sudbury as attractive.

(btw, I do like Sudbury personally)
Click to expand...

Lots of other schools get around this by opening campuses in the GTA. For example, if you want to study at Algoma but don't want to live in Sault Sainte Marie, they have a solution for you:

Brampton

algomau.ca algomau.ca

Or you don't even open a new campus. Just take up affiliation with a diploma mill:

Affiliate Programs in Canada

We have partnered with Alpha College of Business & Technology in Toronto and Canadian College in Vancouver to offer programs to qualified students.
www.stlawrencecollege.ca www.stlawrencecollege.ca

Admiral Beez said:
Given how lucative foreign students are I wonder how Laurentian University drove themselves to near bankruptcy.
Click to expand...

They were just not enthusiastic enough with the international student grift.
 
kEiThZ said:
Lots of other schools get around this by opening campuses in the GTA. For example, if you want to study at Algoma but don't want to live in Sault Sainte Marie, they have a solution for you:

Brampton

algomau.ca algomau.ca

Or you don't even open a new campus. Just take up affiliation with a diploma mill:

Affiliate Programs in Canada

We have partnered with Alpha College of Business & Technology in Toronto and Canadian College in Vancouver to offer programs to qualified students.
www.stlawrencecollege.ca www.stlawrencecollege.ca



They were just not enthusiastic enough with the international student grift.
Click to expand...
Laurentian had a Barrie campus for about 15 years up until about 2019.

If I recall the news coverage at the time, I think Laurentian's financial woes ran much deeper that international student revenue.

Our S-in-L taught part-time at a college for a few years as a side gig. The majority of the first year students were international and many he saw (in person and virtually during Covid) maybe once or twice. Some never handed in assignments. He said there was a lot of internal pressure to pass everybody, which he resisted and earned the animosity of administration. Second and third year classes were much smaller, like single digits, and typically the students were more engaged.
 
Northern Light said:
For those lacking previews and the click-averse, the above is a clip of Federal Minister Miller who in answering in Question Period referred to Foreign Students as an asset that is very lucrative.

That is an all-too honest answer about how they are perceived by both the Federal and Provincial governments; one that omits the word 'exploited' and fails to consider the externalities on such things as housing.
Click to expand...
To be charitable, I think the point he was trying to make is that foreign students are lucrative for Canada as future citizens and taxpayers. I don't think he meant they were lucrative as tuition-payers.
 
lenaitch said:
Laurentian had a Barrie campus for about 15 years up until about 2019.

If I recall the news coverage at the time, I think Laurentian's financial woes ran much deeper that international student revenue.

Our S-in-L taught part-time at a college for a few years as a side gig. The majority of the first year students were international and many he saw (in person and virtually during Covid) maybe once or twice. Some never handed in assignments. He said there was a lot of internal pressure to pass everybody, which he resisted and earned the animosity of administration. Second and third year classes were much smaller, like single digits, and typically the students were more engaged.
Click to expand...

For those interested in the downfall of Laurentian......... here's the Auditor General's Report on that fiasco:


I will simply copy the table of contents, as it gives a good indication of the substance thereafter:

1695939573505.png
 
kEiThZ said:
The problem is that this is the slippery slope they slid down. They've become so dependent on foreign students that they don't care much about education quality or service to Canadian students anymore. Keep in mind that in a lot of institutions even if international students are 30% of the student body, they are 50% of the revenue. And they are paying to get a visa. The students know this. The schools know this. Incentives are aligned to push these students through as quickly and easily as possible. The days of foreign students coming here for their Master's or PhD is quaint.

Put it this way, at this point our education sector is mostly about exploiting foreign students to keep a bunch of administrators, support staff and low skilled faculty (in colleges) in cushy jobs, while helping these students backdoor into residency.
Click to expand...
I think this could be tied in a way to Eric Weinstein's idea of Embedded Growth Obligations.

Academia is a Ponzi Scheme where future academicians pay for existing academicians and an ever growing body of students and tuition is needed to support the promise of continual growth. Eventually the bubble will pop when we run out of grist for the mill.

Embedded Growth Obligations

theportal.wiki theportal.wiki
 
afransen said:
To be charitable, I think the point he was trying to make is that foreign students are lucrative for Canada as future citizens and taxpayers. I don't think he meant they were lucrative as tuition-payers.
Click to expand...

Except that evidence suggests otherwise.

Lets be clear, attracting and retaining some of the best and brighest the world has to offer to our highest quality University programs is absolutely worthwhile and does pay off.

But that is an inconsequentially small part of what's going on.

Luring students, who are often not proficient in English to study in mostly second-tier programs (Community College) and non-tier programs (diploma mills/career colleges etc.) is not a win.

It clearly has the effect of exacerbating a housing crisis; diverting too much investment into real estate and financial services in Canada, lowering entry-level wages, suppressing some middle-income wage growth, and delaying investments in
productivity by business that would be driven by labour shortages and a premium cost to labour.

Meanwhile retaining 'students' who often don't complete their programs, who complete programs that aren't very useful or high-skill is hardly a great win either.

While, also managing to inflict serious financial damage to low income people from developing nations, largely with a false promise of a standard of living here they are unlikely to ever achieve.

I'd call that, lose-lose.
 
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