AHK
Senior Member
To clarify - from my perspective at least - venality wrapped in communications and messaging just obvious easy pr blunders that make no sense.
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Ontario Science Centre
- Thread starter hawc
- Start date
goreckm
Active Member
1. While theoretically the location was further away to downtown than OSC currently is, there is better transit connection there, and will be significantly better over the next several years than Ontario Place with its very long walk to anything transit.
2. The Ontario Place site is smaller = fewer exhibits, and likely a smaller capacity, which is what actually matters here. Many OSC exhibits are hands on, which doesn't work well with excessive crowding.
3. Think of how much neglect can be undone if they put just a fraction of the money used for the parking lot and relocation into regular funding of the original site. Any new site will suffer the same fate without the money coming in.
DKsan
Active Member
I hate to make a car-friendly, suburb-friendly argument, but the OSC is much more convenient to get to from the 905 than any of the downtown museums.
When I was a child growing up in Brampton, we frequently went much more often to the OSC and the Zoo than the ROM, and I can only think of going to the AGO once, when we went in high school (much more likely to go to the McMichael collection in Woodbridge).
hawc
Senior Member
^^^^ This.
I think many on this site have a hardcore downtown mentality (coupled with the official Urban_Toronto mantra - Cars are the Devil).
But when your main audience is kids it's a helluva lot easier to get your little ones somewhere by car than by walking and transit.
The OSC was super easy from a family perspective. Realitively cheap, abundant parking (I know, the most evil thing imaginable) and easy accessibility right off the DVP/Don Mills.
We could whip up there from Cabbagetown in literally 10 minutes door to door on a Sunday morning. Versus having to get the kids on a streetcar (currently unfortunately rolling homeless shelters) and grungy unreliable TTC to ROM or AGO.
The car friendliness of the OSC was a huge positive not a negative for the actual people who used it, even if philosophically it goes against what UT theology is.
Take another attraction geared towards families... Little Canada. It's right smack at Dundas station. You literally walk off the platform and you're at the Little Canada entrance in under 100 paces. But that area of town is a hellscape and not being able to easily drive in and and out with cheap parking is actually a deterrent.
Ripley's is honestly a pain to get to as well with young kids, but of course it gets the tourists.
I think many on this site have a hardcore downtown mentality (coupled with the official Urban_Toronto mantra - Cars are the Devil).
But when your main audience is kids it's a helluva lot easier to get your little ones somewhere by car than by walking and transit.
The OSC was super easy from a family perspective. Realitively cheap, abundant parking (I know, the most evil thing imaginable) and easy accessibility right off the DVP/Don Mills.
We could whip up there from Cabbagetown in literally 10 minutes door to door on a Sunday morning. Versus having to get the kids on a streetcar (currently unfortunately rolling homeless shelters) and grungy unreliable TTC to ROM or AGO.
The car friendliness of the OSC was a huge positive not a negative for the actual people who used it, even if philosophically it goes against what UT theology is.
Take another attraction geared towards families... Little Canada. It's right smack at Dundas station. You literally walk off the platform and you're at the Little Canada entrance in under 100 paces. But that area of town is a hellscape and not being able to easily drive in and and out with cheap parking is actually a deterrent.
Ripley's is honestly a pain to get to as well with young kids, but of course it gets the tourists.
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sixrings
Senior Member
And as a Mississauga resident I prefer to take my kids to the ROM and AGM. Just by coincidence we took our kids to OSC about three weeks ago and it was close to an hour and a half drive in traffic. At least on the GO train it’s an adventure. In a car it’s a nightmare.
UtakataNoAnnex
Senior Member
Isn't it ironic then that they are building a rapid transit line right to OSC where it's currently from a Go Station that would cut hours of driving getting to it.
reinventingthewheel
Active Member
Born and raised in Mississauga, my most vivid memory of the OSC as a child was moving at walking pace on the 401 and DVP.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
This is not a PR blunder - it is questionable decision-making and ulterior motives - just like the Greenbelt (unless you want to call flip-flopping on major policy "PR"). Calling it a PR issue cheapens the modus operandi of this government - it's the equivalent to someone using "ha ha, it's just a joke" as an excuse.
Also, the government appointed the board - did the board just realize that the building has long standing maintenance issues? If that is so, I question the competence of the board in their duties and by extension, whose interests are they reflecting.
AoD
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denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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This site is becoming a condo isn't it?
Northern Light
Superstar
Most of it, will certainly not (ravine lands); the rest is unlikely to. The City is the owner.
reinventingthewheel
Active Member
Only the parking lot near the corner of Eglinton and Don Mills. See area context here:
Post in thread 'Infographics - Future Toronto Skyline'
generalcanada
Senior Member
No, its the opposite, always calling it a conspiracy makes him seem like this scheming criminal mafia boss, when in reality hes just a big buffoon.
Like the beer store thing. For some, a good win, but for others like my conservative dad, doesnt see the point, in reality youre spending 250 million to get beer in corner stores a year early, you didnt need to. It turns a win into a big L.
The greenbelt was another example. You dont call it a criminal conspiracy or bribery quidproquo. It was an incompetent staffer who will probably be charged by the rcmp. When the heat got too much he backed down.
If anyone remembers that time in 2020 when ford suggested stop-and-frisk laws. Thats another easy L he took for absolutely no reason. Completely avoidable
The Ontario Place, Is the prime example, just straight L after L. all he has to do is be somewhat transparent and literally no one would care.
The point is, All of these blunders hes done are just straight incompetence, if this came out of any other government no one would care if it was done right.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I think my memory is good enough to remember he was literally recorded in camera for promises around opening up the Greenbelt before a group of developers - nice try laying the blame on the "incompetent" staffer though. Oh and the Minister that was supposed to be watching and as tossed? He is back in government - so really, don't tell me it is "incompetence" or buffonery - our premier knows what he is doing.
AoD
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Yes - he was recorded as such in 2017 IIRC, after then walking back that promise when it backfired on him during the 2018 election.
Opening up the greenbelt is also not in itself a criminal act. It's a policy choice. Ford had been very anti-opening the greenbelt publicly for 4 years in advance of the decision and most people in the industry did not believe that was going to change.
In 2022, Ford changed his mind. This is not criminal. Or even a scandal. It's politics. He provided direction to the MMAH to identify parcels for removal.
The problem with the Greenbelt Scandal was that the selection process of which parcels to remove was not thorough and was open to influence from outside parties. Ryan Amato was given the task of figuring out what parcels to remove by the upper levels (i.e. Ford) who decided to move forward with it. Given the time pressures, the evidence suggests that instead of relying on preliminary reviews by staffers or opening a general request line for any landowner to ask, he simply removed any parcels which were requested for removal by any developer who managed to figure out what was happening.
And even on that front, it only happened because Amato didn't tell a developer "no" at an industry dinner when asked if they were considering removing parcels, and instead dodged the question. That developer read between the lines then went and told his other developer friends to throw a proposal at the MMAH and see if anything sticks.. and that's pretty much the group that got removed.
What went wrong is an incompetent staffer didn't think through his actions, and the minister failed to question the staffer on how they made the removal selections when presented. Ford's direct involvement was unlikely to be more than providing direction to remove parcels from the greenbelt (a policy direction), and agreeing to the parcels selected in Cabinet on the basis of trust of his Minister.
The blame lies with Clark and really primarily Amato, and even then, I'm not sure it's really a criminal matter. Just incompetence and a failure of Amato and Clark to uphold their professional duties.
Again, assuming there isn't more to the story than what has come to light.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
That's certainly what the government wants us to believe - incompetence and rogue actors, and not calculated maleficence. Odd then that everyone seems to be using their private phones.
AoD