Ontario Science Centre

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Just came back from the ROM with the kids.

I was struck by how much less run-down the ROM was compared to the OSC.

I'd love a non-cynical, non-bitter, non-conspiracy theory explanation of why the AGO, ROM, ZOO were kept in way better repair than the OSC.

Is it a private, public thing? Is it an adult, kid thing? Is it a location thing?

Why was the OSC left to rot while those other institutions were well maintained. Why were they given care over the decades and the OSC was not?

Did the OSC have a lazy/corrupt board of governors or something?

Constructive answers only. Not looking for "Ford sucks etc..." That's all true, but not helpful to the question. This was decades of neglect and I'm baffled why.

Part of it is also patronage - if you look at the board of ROM or AGO, it's a A-list of money/power; also the artifacts themselves are worth money - OSC doesn't have this kind of asset. Neither ROM nor AGO are purely provincial constructs either.

I do note with a rather cynical sense of irony that it is the PCs that delivered the coup d'grace to the ideals of their predecessors. You know, spa and beers over nature and science as priorities of investments - you get who you voted for.

AoD

 

[Johnny Au]

It would be great to have this thread be renamed to simply “Ontario Science Centre” as we have moved on from just the pedestrian bridge.

 

[Northern Light]

@AlexBozikovic 's take on the closure of the OSC is out.

Shameless spin aside, closing the Ontario Science Centre is a choice

The centre’s closing is a deeply cynical political manoeuvre based on a bogus reading of an engineer’s report

www.theglobeandmail.com

He rightly calls out the spin here, and the wilful misrepresentation of the engineering report.

Unfortunately, in my eyes, he also includes a paragraph that is exceedingly partisan and will alienate a portion of his readership who might otherwise be sympathetic.

I'm not a Doug Ford voter, populism is not my shtick, nor am I socially conservative in the least, but I see no utility in taking aim at people whose support would be advantageous in a given circumstance.

Ah well.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

'This is not a decision any of us wanted to make,' infrastructure minister says of science centre closure

Ontario’s minister of infrastructure says the province had 'every intention' of keeping the current Ontario Science Centre open until construction was complete at the new facility but said the abrupt closure Friday was the result of a “health and safety risk” that she had to heed.

www.cp24.com

Surma noted that the decision to close the museum immediately was made by the science centre’s board of directors shortly after the province reviewed the engineering report.

“It was the board, the science centre board, that made that very sad and difficult decision but we as the government stand by that decision,” she said.

a) Who appointed the board and b) the track record of this government overriding arms length agencies/boards/commissions/crown corps (e.g. LCBO) is *quite* interesting. Clearly Minister Surma treat the public as fools. If you are going to fake tears, try a little harder.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

Part of it is also patronage - if you look at the board of ROM or AGO, it's a A-list of money/power; also the artifacts themselves are worth money - OSC doesn't have this kind of asset. Neither ROM nor AGO are purely provincial constructs either.

I do note with a rather cynical sense of irony that it is the PCs that delivered the coup d'grace to the ideals of their predecessors. You know, spa and beers over nature and science as priorities of investments - you get who you voted for.

AoD

Of course many of us are getting who we did not vote for too!

Indeed, more Ontarians voted for other parties (combined) than for Doug Ford's PCs.

It is a function of a terrible system (FPTP) that was once arguably necessary, but no longer is..... that we end up with governments with nearly unlimited power, based on a mandate from ~40% of those who voted, or about 17% of those eligible to vote.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

The difficult decision would have been to fund the restructuring of OSC to keep the thing open. But to close it, that was easy to do....with no real cost to them. So indeed, their tears are super fake here.

 

[generalcanada]

'This is not a decision any of us wanted to make,' infrastructure minister says of science centre closure

Ontario’s minister of infrastructure says the province had 'every intention' of keeping the current Ontario Science Centre open until construction was complete at the new facility but said the abrupt closure Friday was the result of a “health and safety risk” that she had to heed.

www.cp24.com

a) Who appointed the board and b) the track record of this government overriding arms length agencies/boards/commissions/crown corps (e.g. LCBO) is *quite* interesting. Clearly Minister Surma treat the public as fools. If you are going to fake tears, try a little harder.

AoD

from the article:

Some in the community have questioned the urgency of the closure and have suggested that the province could fix some of the panels in most need of repair in an effort to keep the centre open to the public for a little while longer.

Surma told reporters Monday that the engineers who assessed the site advised against doing that.

“The engineers were quite specific when we spoke to them that if we were to do work on the roof, we should replace the roof in its entirety and the building would have to be closed through that period of time, two to five years just the roof work alone,” Surma said.

The engineering report indicated that replacing the roof would cost anywhere from $22 million and $40 million and the province has previously said that a minimum capital investment of $478 million would be needed to “address outdated and failing infrastructure” as well as “program requirements” at the aging museum.

If that truly is the case that when the engineers spoke to the government in person, they advised against minimal repairs of the roof, then this is an open and shut case.
IF this is true, it really shows that complaining without the full picture is harmful, because the report does not say that at all. Lots of people would not be getting the same info the government did.
You can be skeptical of it, but if they are putting words in the engineer's mouth then that's a problem

It really would be typical of the government for them to fumble a pr crisis like this.

 

[lenaitch]

Part of it is also patronage - if you look at the board of ROM or AGO, it's a A-list of money/power; also the artifacts themselves are worth money - OSC doesn't have this kind of asset. Neither ROM nor AGO are purely provincial constructs either.

I do note with a rather cynical sense of irony that it is the PCs that delivered the coup d'grace to the ideals of their predecessors. You know, spa and beers over nature and science as priorities of investments - you get who you voted for.

AoD

In addition, museums and art galleries on the level of the ROM and AGO have international prominence and deep pocketed benefactors so there is much more at stake if the province wanted to play populist silly bugger. Both have holdings that are valued into the millions and at least some of it they likely they do not own (loaned from another museum or collector). When it's the roof over somebody else's really expensive stuff that you are responsible for, it focusses the mind.

 

[The Preservationist]

The Great Hall and surrounding structure is in my opinion one of the greatest examples of mid century modernist architecture this planet has to offer. I'm saddened that it will not be available for future generations.

 

[ssiguy2]

I fail to understand why Torontonians are so against moving the Science Centre to near Ontario Place. It is a far nicer and more convenient location and let's be serious, the OSC is in pretty bad shape and that cannot be blamed on Ford. It has basically been neglected for 30 years and they are right to close it down if it is structurally insecure, even if just a part of it.

They can certainly keep some of the building for historic reasons. I never found it attractive, but it is an iconic building of 1960s construction. Also wasn't the moving of the OSC part of the deal for QP to upload the Gardiner & DVP?

I think some of the howling has more to do with it being Ford who is moving it rather than the move itself.

 

[hawc]

I fail to understand why Torontonians are so against moving the Science Centre to near Ontario Place. It is a far nicer and more convenient location.

Nope. Edge of a ravine is way nicer. As much as I love the Ontario Place pods, nothing compares with Moriyama's masterpiece. And convenient to who? Convenient maybe if you live down there. Not convenient for those who went to the Science Centre.

The OSC is in pretty bad shape and that cannot be blamed on Ford. It has basically been neglected for 30 years.

Can't disagree with this. Took the kids there twice a month for the last 5 years and it was incredibly run down. And just plain grungy inside.

They can certainly keep some of the building for historic reasons.

Hopefully. It would be amazing if a university or college stepped up and said we're going to convert the main buildings into a campus (forget the warehouses at the bottom.) It could be like another Glendon Campus.

 

[taal]

I think the zoo comparison is a great one and it does make me wonder how things got so bad at the OSC - especially given how world renowned it was in the early days !

If you think back maybe 3 or 4 years ago - there were many articles about low zoo attendance and how it was struggling - I would also agree many of the facilities were (and are) aging. But something seemed to change in the pandemic or post pandemic ? The zoo seems considerably busier at all times, and I'm not entirely sure why - they made some improvements for sure, but I'm not sure what's what it is. I think it has a very strong membership base and for many it's a "day at a park and there happens to be some animals". I'm very happy for the zoo as the future seems bright. Clearly they are heavily investing as well with 60M+ on a new entrance / pavilion / ...

Maybe the answer is partly there, it's a lot simpler for the zoo to renovate a pavilion, add a new one, or the like, vs the OSC which likely needed a major face lift through and through.

 

[generalcanada]

How the Ontario Science Centre was suddenly shut down — and why

Ontario's auditor general had warned that "deferred maintenance projects that were at risk of critical failure have been repeatedly denied funding" at the science centre.

www.thestar.com

- IO will get the report peer-reviewed
- the fact that even 1 panel is at risk increases the risk of a full roof collapse

 

[chrisw]

Ontario Science Centre doesn’t require full closure: A close reading of the engineers' report

A deep dive into the engineers' report suggests that the building’s key exhibition areas could continue to operate safely—even if the Ontario government chooses not to invest in any structural roof repairs by the fall.

www.canadianarchitect.com

 

[Coolibop]

How the Ontario Science Centre was suddenly shut down — and why

Ontario's auditor general had warned that "deferred maintenance projects that were at risk of critical failure have been repeatedly denied funding" at the science centre.

www.thestar.com

I think some new information:

One reason for immediate closure is to give staff time to plan for whatever science centre we are going to have (temporarily). The messaging sounds as if this would be not possible to achieve in tandem of keeping it open.

Many other buildings (in Ontario) have the same material used... Are now being looked at (will they be closed as swiftly as OSC?) - given children frequent involved with OSC, I can understand the risk aversion.

The auditor general has listed numerous issues with the OSC that have been ignored since 2017 (no surprise here), a year before Ford took office.

It would take 2 to 5 years to replace the roof. Possibly beyond the planned move date.

I still find the communication about the whole thing poorly managed... And the messaging (as shown with other arms length agencies) seems to be very controlled. Why was the OSC not able to share why the bridge was closed as it was structurally not sound? We now know IO ordered the closure: it would cost 16 million to repair (I imagine the shuttle busses weren't as pricey for the 6 years planned until move). They knew they were moving it, so presumably didn't fund.

One final interesting tidbit I found interesting:

Just to stir the pot.... Do we think there was evidence of the problem? It sounds like this isn't something you know to lookout for... Unless you have a motive...?