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Ontario Science Centre

Coolibop said:
I think some new information:

One reason for immediate closure is to give staff time to plan for whatever science centre we are going to have (temporarily). The messaging sounds as if this would be not possible to achieve in tandem of keeping it open.

Many other buildings (in Ontario) have the same material used... Are now being looked at (will they be closed as swiftly as OSC?) - given children frequent involved with OSC, I can understand the risk aversion.

The auditor general has listed numerous issues with the OSC that have been ignored since 2017 (no surprise here), a year before Ford took office.

It would take 2 to 5 years to replace the roof. Possibly beyond the planned move date.

I still find the communication about the whole thing poorly managed... And the messaging (as shown with other arms length agencies) seems to be very controlled. Why was the OSC not able to share why the bridge was closed as it was structurally not sound? We now know IO ordered the closure: it would cost 16 million to repair (I imagine the shuttle busses weren't as pricey for the 6 years planned until move). They knew they were moving it, so presumably didn't fund.

One final interesting tidbit I found interesting:
View attachment 575309
Just to stir the pot.... Do we think there was evidence of the problem? It sounds like this isn't something you know to lookout for... Unless you have a motive...?
Click to expand...
There is 1 thing common among all of Ford's scandals....Communication and messaging.
Just obvious easy pr blunders that make no sense.
 
ssiguy2 said:
I fail to understand why Torontonians are so against moving the Science Centre to near Ontario Place. It is a far nicer and more convenient location and let's be serious, the OSC is in pretty bad shape and that cannot be blamed on Ford. It has basically been neglected for 30 years and they are right to close it down if it is structurally insecure, even if just a part of it.
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1. While theoretically the location was further away to downtown than OSC currently is, there is better transit connection there, and will be significantly better over the next several years than Ontario Place with its very long walk to anything transit.

2. The Ontario Place site is smaller = fewer exhibits, and likely a smaller capacity, which is what actually matters here. Many OSC exhibits are hands on, which doesn't work well with excessive crowding.

3. Think of how much neglect can be undone if they put just a fraction of the money used for the parking lot and relocation into regular funding of the original site. Any new site will suffer the same fate without the money coming in.
 
ssiguy2 said:
I fail to understand why Torontonians are so against moving the Science Centre to near Ontario Place. It is a far nicer and more convenient location and let's be serious, the OSC is in pretty bad shape and that cannot be blamed on Ford. It has basically been neglected for 30 years and they are right to close it down if it is structurally insecure, even if just a part of it.
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I hate to make a car-friendly, suburb-friendly argument, but the OSC is much more convenient to get to from the 905 than any of the downtown museums.

When I was a child growing up in Brampton, we frequently went much more often to the OSC and the Zoo than the ROM, and I can only think of going to the AGO once, when we went in high school (much more likely to go to the McMichael collection in Woodbridge).
 
^^^^ This.

I think many on this site have a hardcore downtown mentality (coupled with the official Urban_Toronto mantra - Cars are the Devil).

But when your main audience is kids it's a helluva lot easier to get your little ones somewhere by car than by walking and transit.

The OSC was super easy from a family perspective. Realitively cheap, abundant parking (I know, the most evil thing imaginable) and easy accessibility right off the DVP/Don Mills.

We could whip up there from Cabbagetown in literally 10 minutes door to door on a Sunday morning. Versus having to get the kids on a streetcar (currently unfortunately rolling homeless shelters) and grungy unreliable TTC to ROM or AGO.

The car friendliness of the OSC was a huge positive not a negative for the actual people who used it, even if philosophically it goes against what UT theology is.

Take another attraction geared towards families... Little Canada. It's right smack at Dundas station. You literally walk off the platform and you're at the Little Canada entrance in under 100 paces. But that area of town is a hellscape and not being able to easily drive in and and out with cheap parking is actually a deterrent.

Ripley's is honestly a pain to get to as well with young kids, but of course it gets the tourists.
 
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DKsan said:
I hate to make a car-friendly, suburb-friendly argument, but the OSC is much more convenient to get to from the 905 than any of the downtown museums.

When I was a child growing up in Brampton, we frequently went much more often to the OSC and the Zoo than the ROM, and I can only think of going to the AGO once, when we went in high school (much more likely to go to the McMichael collection in Woodbridge).
Click to expand...
And as a Mississauga resident I prefer to take my kids to the ROM and AGM. Just by coincidence we took our kids to OSC about three weeks ago and it was close to an hour and a half drive in traffic. At least on the GO train it’s an adventure. In a car it’s a nightmare.
 
Isn't it ironic then that they are building a rapid transit line right to OSC where it's currently from a Go Station that would cut hours of driving getting to it.
 
sixrings said:
And as a Mississauga resident I prefer to take my kids to the ROM and AGM. Just by coincidence we took our kids to OSC about three weeks ago and it was close to an hour and a half drive in traffic. At least on the GO train it’s an adventure. In a car it’s a nightmare.
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Born and raised in Mississauga, my most vivid memory of the OSC as a child was moving at walking pace on the 401 and DVP.
 
generalcanada said:
There is 1 thing common among all of Ford's scandals....Communication and messaging.
Just obvious easy pr blunders that make no sense.
Click to expand...

This is not a PR blunder - it is questionable decision-making and ulterior motives - just like the Greenbelt (unless you want to call flip-flopping on major policy "PR"). Calling it a PR issue cheapens the modus operandi of this government - it's the equivalent to someone using "ha ha, it's just a joke" as an excuse.

Also, the government appointed the board - did the board just realize that the building has long standing maintenance issues? If that is so, I question the competence of the board in their duties and by extension, whose interests are they reflecting.

AoD
 
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AlvinofDiaspar said:
This is not a PR blunder - it is questionable decision-making and ulterior motives - just like the Greenbelt (unless you want to call flip-flopping on major policy "PR"). Calling it a PR issue cheapens the modus operandi of this government - it's the equivalent to someone using "ha ha, it's just a joke" as an excuse.

Also, the government appointed the board - did the board just realize that the building has long standing maintenance issues? If that is so, I question the competence of the board in their duties and by extension, whose interests are they reflecting.

AoD
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No, its the opposite, always calling it a conspiracy makes him seem like this scheming criminal mafia boss, when in reality hes just a big buffoon.

Like the beer store thing. For some, a good win, but for others like my conservative dad, doesnt see the point, in reality youre spending 250 million to get beer in corner stores a year early, you didnt need to. It turns a win into a big L.
The greenbelt was another example. You dont call it a criminal conspiracy or bribery quidproquo. It was an incompetent staffer who will probably be charged by the rcmp. When the heat got too much he backed down.
If anyone remembers that time in 2020 when ford suggested stop-and-frisk laws. Thats another easy L he took for absolutely no reason. Completely avoidable
The Ontario Place, Is the prime example, just straight L after L. all he has to do is be somewhat transparent and literally no one would care.

The point is, All of these blunders hes done are just straight incompetence, if this came out of any other government no one would care if it was done right.
 
generalcanada said:
The greenbelt was another example. You dont call it a criminal conspiracy or bribery quidproquo. It was an incompetent staffer who will probably be charged by the rcmp.
Click to expand...

I think my memory is good enough to remember he was literally recorded in camera for promises around opening up the Greenbelt before a group of developers - nice try laying the blame on the "incompetent" staffer though. Oh and the Minister that was supposed to be watching and as tossed? He is back in government - so really, don't tell me it is "incompetence" or buffonery - our premier knows what he is doing.

AoD
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
I think my memory is good enough to remember he was literally recorded in camera for promises around opening up the Greenbelt before a group of developers - nice try laying the blame on the "incompetent" staffer though. Oh and the Minister that was supposed to be watching and as tossed? He is back in government - so really, don't tell me it is "incompetence" or buffonery - our premier knows what he is doing.

AoD
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Yes - he was recorded as such in 2017 IIRC, after then walking back that promise when it backfired on him during the 2018 election.

Opening up the greenbelt is also not in itself a criminal act. It's a policy choice. Ford had been very anti-opening the greenbelt publicly for 4 years in advance of the decision and most people in the industry did not believe that was going to change.

In 2022, Ford changed his mind. This is not criminal. Or even a scandal. It's politics. He provided direction to the MMAH to identify parcels for removal.

The problem with the Greenbelt Scandal was that the selection process of which parcels to remove was not thorough and was open to influence from outside parties. Ryan Amato was given the task of figuring out what parcels to remove by the upper levels (i.e. Ford) who decided to move forward with it. Given the time pressures, the evidence suggests that instead of relying on preliminary reviews by staffers or opening a general request line for any landowner to ask, he simply removed any parcels which were requested for removal by any developer who managed to figure out what was happening.

And even on that front, it only happened because Amato didn't tell a developer "no" at an industry dinner when asked if they were considering removing parcels, and instead dodged the question. That developer read between the lines then went and told his other developer friends to throw a proposal at the MMAH and see if anything sticks.. and that's pretty much the group that got removed.

What went wrong is an incompetent staffer didn't think through his actions, and the minister failed to question the staffer on how they made the removal selections when presented. Ford's direct involvement was unlikely to be more than providing direction to remove parcels from the greenbelt (a policy direction), and agreeing to the parcels selected in Cabinet on the basis of trust of his Minister.

The blame lies with Clark and really primarily Amato, and even then, I'm not sure it's really a criminal matter. Just incompetence and a failure of Amato and Clark to uphold their professional duties.

Again, assuming there isn't more to the story than what has come to light.
 
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