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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

alexanderglista said:
The business case is being worked on by both Metrolinx and ONTC (we knew this). I wonder if we’ll see GO railcars painted blue and used on the future Northlander, or if we will see Metrolinx operating the service itself.
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I have a feeling that ONTC's passenger service will be split from freight services and become a division of Metrolinx. ONR freight Railway will continue under the auspices of Mines and Northern Development.
 
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Fritter said:
I have a feeling that ONTC's passenger service will be split from freight services and become a division of Metrolinx. ONR freight Railway will continue under the auspices of Mines and Norther Development.
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I can see it now - Presto card-only available at the Moose River Crossing flagstop.
 
Fritter said:
I have a feeling that ONTC's passenger service will be split from freight services and become a division of Metrolinx. ONR freight Railway will continue under the auspices of Mines and Northern Development.
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That actually would be a good idea for it. The problem with the passenger side of the ONTC is that it falls under the wrong government ministry.
 
This would probably be one of the better endings as ONTC passenger services have been constantly at risk of privatization for years, and under Metrolinx, they'd at least theoretically be safe, and contrary to what some people think, people do use public transportation in the North, as most communities were built because of the railways and are spaced apart accordingly.

While the Northlander restoration would be fantastic, I would also like to see a potential era of Metrolinx-ONTC cooperation/ONTC merger under Metrolinx help to clarify the Highway 400/west-Central Ontario situation, as right now a large segment of ONTC coach services basically duplicate the Barrie line (minus a few stops), and in my experience many passengers get on and off at Barrie, a number get off at Orillia (which is confusingly hard to get to by transit, especially as an intercity traveller), and the rest pretty much ride it out until Sudbury. When I've taken ONTC lately I've always connected at Yorkdale and as I'm coming from the west, will end up taking a succession of western GTA GO buses that can sometimes have pretty dicey connections in rush hour traffic, making the whole experience rather stressful, with the one upside of a direct connection within Yorkdale vs. going to Union and then walking or taking the TTC to the Bay St coach terminal.

While some people might find a single-seat ride convenient, I'm not sure how much value there is in having ONTC coaches leave directly from downtown Toronto, as they often get stuck in traffic, and the estimated travel time from Bay St to downtown Barrie terminal is 1h30m (as opposed to 1h46m for the Barrie line from Union to Allandale), which isn't a significant time advantage, especially when you factor in potential delays. It's also a relatively "express" route with only the intermediate Yorkdale stop, so I don't think there's really any way it could be improved. As Barrie line improvements kick in over the next few years it is going to become a more attractive option for people who are connecting via GO anyway, and I've heard ONTC spends a considerable amount on licensing fees to use bus bays at Yorkdale, which could then be freed up for other buses. At the other end, the connections will also be simplified as Barrie is very likely going forward with closing its downtown terminal and migrating operations to Allandale, which ONTC coaches will presumably shift to. Right now the main barrier to Barrie line->ONTC transfers is the infrequency and timing of both, as evening Barrie line trains only get to Barrie by the time most ONTC coaches have passed through for the day. A consolidated ONTC could potentially use its coaches more strategically while inducing more ridership on the Barrie line, rather than competing with it as it currently does.
 
One seat to Union has no value for someone coming from Sault St Marie, Cochrane or places in between? That would be like saying that GO Trains should not terminate in Union. People from those far flung areas are coming to Toronto for various reasons, including medical help. By not going to Union, you are preventing them from potentially getting down to their appointments easily.

The ONR buses actually go to the Toronto Coach Terminal just north of Union. The Northlander used to go to Union. Face it, that is the hub, not just for the GTA, but for all of Ontario and Canada.
 
@tmlittle my thought on that is either to truncate at Barrie and save the additional vehicle wear and tear, or to redirect ONTC services to Pearson, at times when passengers for Toronto can take the GO train.
 
@micheal_can in my mind the Northlander/North Bay route is a different case because the Richmond Hill line is unloved and will clearly be one of the "losers" of the GO Expansion era, while the Barrie line is one of the clear winners. Single seat rides are great and I know linear transfers are a bit disfavoured, but with the quid pro quo of the ONTC potentially being able to put more buses on the road between Sudbury and Barrie and save resources, it could be a very valid decision. With where GO service to Barrie will be in 5-10 years there will be less and less point in running half-empty buses to the new Union bus terminal. It would be a different case if there was real intercity rail service to Sudbury (not the Canadian), but I don't think anybody expects that any time soon.

I'm from the North and have taken this and other routes a number of times. I'm glad the ONTC is experimenting with stuff like commuter-style routes, flex tickets, and getting a fleet of smaller buses, since it seems like a sign of transitioning slowly away from the antiquated and widely hated Greyhound model of service that should have died out in the 2000s. In the future I'd love to see it play even more of a role providing "intercommunity" style service similar to the new rural-oriented systems like LINX in Simcoe County, feeding into hubs like Sudbury and North Bay, and providing more frequent service that would let more people live car-free in the North without having to live somewhere like downtown Sudbury. In my opinion it should be Via Rail's responsibility to provide intercity service such as from Sudbury to Toronto, but of course nobody is listening to Northern municipalities' demands for improved rail service. I just don't see the point in having ONTC coaches unnecessarily duplicate higher-order transit within the GTA when those resources could be allocated to the north itself, such as reconnecting Sudbury and Thunder Bay properly (which is urgently needed), serving more small communities, or adding frequency to existing routes.
 
tmlittle said:
@micheal_can in my mind the Northlander/North Bay route is a different case because the Richmond Hill line is unloved and will clearly be one of the "losers" of the GO Expansion era, while the Barrie line is one of the clear winners. Single seat rides are great and I know linear transfers are a bit disfavoured, but with the quid pro quo of the ONTC potentially being able to put more buses on the road between Sudbury and Barrie and save resources, it could be a very valid decision. With where GO service to Barrie will be in 5-10 years there will be less and less point in running half-empty buses to the new Union bus terminal. It would be a different case if there was real intercity rail service to Sudbury (not the Canadian), but I don't think anybody expects that any time soon.

I'm from the North and have taken this and other routes a number of times. I'm glad the ONTC is experimenting with stuff like commuter-style routes, flex tickets, and getting a fleet of smaller buses, since it seems like a sign of transitioning slowly away from the antiquated and widely hated Greyhound model of service that should have died out in the 2000s. In the future I'd love to see it play even more of a role providing "intercommunity" style service similar to the new rural-oriented systems like LINX in Simcoe County, feeding into hubs like Sudbury and North Bay, and providing more frequent service that would let more people live car-free in the North without having to live somewhere like downtown Sudbury. In my opinion it should be Via Rail's responsibility to provide intercity service such as from Sudbury to Toronto, but of course nobody is listening to Northern municipalities' demands for improved rail service. I just don't see the point in having ONTC coaches unnecessarily duplicate higher-order transit within the GTA when those resources could be allocated to the north itself, such as reconnecting Sudbury and Thunder Bay properly (which is urgently needed), serving more small communities, or adding frequency to existing routes.
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Getting HFR off the ground is the starting point for improving passenger rail service. The success of HFR may present other opportunities in the future. In the meantime, an improved bus model is the way to go to build up ridership.
 
cottagelife.com

Passenger train service could return to Ontario's cottage country

Passenger trains haven't rolled through the Muskoka-Parry Sound area since September 2012. The Ontario government at the time, headed by Liberal leader Ontario train advocates say the Ford government's 2018 campaign promise to reinstall service to northeastern Ontario is just around the corner.
cottagelife.com cottagelife.com
 
I'm glad people are keeping up the pressure, and it's just local news, but I wish there was more clarity in the article. "Muskoka-Parry Sound area" doesn't make much sense in the context of north-south routes. I'm guessing they're referring primarily about Northlander restoration/Metrolinx takeover, but I'd be extremely surprised if any new service materialized to/through Parry Sound. That said, given what happened with Niagara, it's possible there could be summer excursion trains to Parry Sound or something, which might be useful to cottagers even if it's not that useful for northern residents. I'd love to see an actual regional rail connection from Toronto to Sudbury that operated at frequencies and times actually useful to most people (as opposed to the Canadian), but that would be a major endeavour.
 
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