Train fare may have been because of the day of the week. Also, I did Moosonee to Cochrane because I couldn't see Moosonee to Timmins -- so you would still have to get to Timmins and then to Toronto. I've lived up that way, travel can be complicated.
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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation
- Thread starter CDL.TO
- Start date
Garuda
Active Member
Sounds more like fear mongering from Charlie Angus to rally NDP support for the election.
If anything, he should not be in front of the train (to use it as a prop) just like campaigning candidates can't use the TTC or GO. Tim Hudak got into trouble for this in 2014. That said, Elizabth May campagined by VIA Rail last week.
lenaitch
Senior Member
As did I. You could be correct - I got my price from a travel article - it was a faster search than using the ONTC site. You can't get a train ticket from Timmins to Moosonee but I do believe they offer a combined bus-train fare, or at least used to.
I'm not sure about the rules; he is a federal candidate standing in front of a provincial government entity. Trespassing perhaps.
It might be different for May since she is using it as her method of transportation rather than a prop.
micheal_can
Senior Member
End of the line for Huron Central Railway unless funding secured
I feel that this is a great opportunity for the ONR to expand.
I feel that this is a great opportunity for the ONR to expand.
Northern Light
Superstar
Or VIA, or better still, both. They each invest 1/2 and neither company pays running rights, but any freights do. Neither VIA nor ONR need to use it for service right away, but it would be a useful banked asset.
dowlingm
Senior Member
I would think HCR‘s freight customers do need service right away.
HCR is also disconnected from ONR’s network so while some things will scale, some will not, and at the same time it would be interesting to see how the operating practices/costs of ONTC compare to G&W - and how much deferred maintenance has piled up.
Northern Light
Superstar
I was meaning that no passenger service needed to be added right away, and was making an assumption that if ONTC/VIA maintained the track, a third-party freight operation could make it work paying running rights only.
lenaitch
Senior Member
So, what would be in it for VIA and/or ONTC, other than publicly-funded railbanking (beyond the fact that CP still owns the ROW)? Regardless of whether it is the federal or provincial government funding it directly or indirectly by throwing money at HCR, it's still public money. The problem is there are customers at the west end (SSM - which also has CN) and towards the east end (Espanola and Nairn) and no meaningful revenue traffic in between.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Well, first, ONR should buy it from CP. This would begin the process of showing those companies that if you do not operate without government subsidies, then the government will take it off your hands. I work for one of those companies serviced by it. However, I feel that keeping the line is a good thing, and it should not be abandoned. I feel that the entire route between SSM and Ottawa(Mattawa) should be owned by ONR. There is enough traffic to warrant rail, but not enough to be profitable.
lenaitch
Senior Member
I would support the line being maintained, but I'm not sure about your premise. So if a line is unprofitable (or operated poorly), you have a guaranteed publicly-funded backstop? Should public money buy both lines? I don't know. Long term leasing has worked well across North America. I'm actually quite surprised there hasn't been overtures about ONR taking over the service of the OVR between Sudbury and Temiscaming QC, ownership aside. I don't know the revenue traffic between Sudbury and North Bay but its been a bit of a stub service since the line down the valley was lifted.
I wonder if the proposed ferrochrome refinery in SSM will generate traffic. I would think they are hoping for a lot of the output being via marine, but there might be rail-based product as well. Depends on the destinations I suppose.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Public money pays for roads that are not used much.
The current ONR lines are not profitable,, hence the province wanting to not pay for it. Should it be sold off?
lenaitch
Senior Member
Roads,including city streets, are a different animal and I doubt if there is a meaningful way to devise a way to determine the profitability of a given road.
The Ontario government owns ONTC assets so, yes, they are providing subsidies, and I'm not opposed to government support, but your premise was the government should outright buy any line that cannot be profitable without subsidies; help is cheaper than ownership. Even CN and CP receive federal money for specific initiatives such as crossing improvements.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Think of what the line currently hauls. A variety of caustic and acidic chemicals and steel.
The mass of steel would chew up the highways quicker. The amount of trucks needed to replace the train would be much more. And it could mean that the company shuts down.
Now, just imagine a spill of the chemicals. Chances are it would be due to a motor vehicle accident. Now think of the environmental impact.
We keep wondering why our jobs are leaving here. The loss of infrastructure is part of the reason.
lenaitch
Senior Member
^ Trust me, I understand what you are saying and am never in favour of shutting down any line. I'm not sure the line can be made any more profitable - it probably has as many customers as it will ever get. Algoma Steel seems to lurch back and forth and there might be some traffic from the ferrochrome refinery but I don't know. It might be made more reliable and faster with subsidies for track improvements.
ONTC also receives subsidies for rail operations (including passenger ops) but it has a more diverse customer base. Even at that, it will be seriously challenged if Kidd Creek isn't extended past 2022 as it represents a big chunk of their traffic. The mine is already down 3km and while they are fairly confident there is more ore to be had, doing it profitably may be the challenge. It's the deepest base metal mine in the world so a lot of uncharted territory.
ONTC also receives subsidies for rail operations (including passenger ops) but it has a more diverse customer base. Even at that, it will be seriously challenged if Kidd Creek isn't extended past 2022 as it represents a big chunk of their traffic. The mine is already down 3km and while they are fairly confident there is more ore to be had, doing it profitably may be the challenge. It's the deepest base metal mine in the world so a lot of uncharted territory.
micheal_can
Senior Member
This is why owning these short lines is better. It keeps those businesses going and keeps the infrastructure in place. It also means that the proceeds don''t go to some CEO.