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Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

Ignoring the hyperbole of genocide, I imagine all manners of people were caught off guard and will be disadvantaged by the cancellation much like the earlier mass route cancellation by Greyhound, I haven't seen the reason why but I can only assume that ridership didn't justify its continuation and the ONTC recently had their allocation cut (the Holiday train was cancelled too).
 
Ignoring the hyperbole of genocide, I imagine all manners of people were caught off guard and will be disadvantaged by the cancellation much like the earlier mass route cancellation by Greyhound,
It‘s a business. Either the route wasn’t profitable or more profit could be made elsewhere.
 
Then we should be cancelling public transit pretty much everywhere in Canada then :rolleyes:

AoD
Greyhound is not public transit, anymore than Westjet is. We can argue that the North has a right to public transit connecting them to southern Ontario, but that’s not what has ceased with Greyhound’s service stoppage.
 
Greyhound is not public transit, anymore than Westjet is. We can argue that the North has a right to public transit connecting them to southern Ontario, but that’s not what has ceased with Greyhound’s service stoppage.

ONTC isn’t Greyhound - it is a crown agency of the province. In other words - it isn’t really a business anymore than GO Transit is one. QED.

AoD
 
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While a Crown transportation agency might not be a for-profit corporation, there is an expectation that public funds are spent wisely. I don't know the ridership numbers of the Manitoulin route, but if highway coaches were consistently running around the island with ones and twos on board, they would face criticism and scrutiny and some point, as would an urban transit route that had very low ridership.
A private service operating a passenger van or something similar, timed to meet the coach at Hwy 17, might have been better success, and I wouldn't object for them to receive some form of per-passenger subsidy.
 
While a Crown transportation agency might not be a for-profit corporation, there is an expectation that public funds are spent wisely. I don't know the ridership numbers of the Manitoulin route, but if highway coaches were consistently running around the island with ones and twos on board, they would face criticism and scrutiny and some point, as would an urban transit route that had very low ridership.
A private service operating a passenger van or something similar, timed to meet the coach at Hwy 17, might have been better success, and I wouldn't object for them to receive some form of per-passenger subsidy.

Of course it doesn't entirely escape value-for-money analysis - but it is also one reason why I brought up Lakeshore GO to Niagara - VfM never stopped any government (and certainly not this government) from doing what it felt needed to be done, and I'd argue there is probably a better equity argument to be made for service to Manitoulin (and government isn't a business precisely because of the moral obligation to at least consider equity in decision-making).

AoD
 
The problem here is that communities die out if their services are taken away. Being from the North I've seen the vast difference between communities that lose services (often purely due to government structure and political machinations/clout) and communities that don't. Once a small town in the North loses its public school not a single person with kids is going to be willing to move there, and within 20 years they are a glorified senior home. Yet school boards in the North have spent 30 years closing rural schools and busing kids into centers like Sudbury. When I went to high school I would spend over an hour on the school bus -- each way.

And at the other end, lots of seniors in the North end up relocating to places like Sudbury so they can access transit to get around, but this can be a traumatic experience for people who have spent 50 or 60 years in the same small community with people they know, and it can often take away unofficial community support networks even if it gets them better access to official ones. But the alternative for many of them is lack of access to medical care -- which is a serious problem in the North that's acknowledged by all levels of government and the media, and there's been decades of discourse about it with towns paying doctors tens of thousands of dollars to get them to sign 3 or 5 year contracts to stay.

Cuts to services, inconsistent services, and situations like this where a service gets implemented and then taken away again without a clear substitute, are an existential threat to Northern communities -- which have a fundamental right to exist and receive services, and it is the duty and obligation of all levels of government to provide these services. 30 years ago many towns in the North had passenger rail that now don't even have bus service. Outside of North America and especially in Europe, I don't think you would find quite as many people questioning the dollar value of providing rural services, and it would be talked about more correctly in a framework of cuts and government austerity, which is the elephant in the room here. If Ontario Northland wasn't constantly being faced with funding cuts and threats of privatization from both Liberals and Conservatives for absolutely no reason other than lack of regard for the North and the belief that privatization would have no significant political blowback for the province, they would be able to actually commit to serving regions like Manitoulin and the North Shore, as the people running the agency clearly wish they could. Then people would have time to get used to these routes existing and be more inclined to rely on them.
 
The problem here is that communities die out if their services are taken away. Being from the North I've seen the vast difference between communities that lose services (often purely due to government structure and political machinations/clout) and communities that don't. Once a small town in the North loses its public school not a single person with kids is going to be willing to move there, and within 20 years they are a glorified senior home. Yet school boards in the North have spent 30 years closing rural schools and busing kids into centers like Sudbury. When I went to high school I would spend over an hour on the school bus -- each way.

And at the other end, lots of seniors in the North end up relocating to places like Sudbury so they can access transit to get around, but this can be a traumatic experience for people who have spent 50 or 60 years in the same small community with people they know, and it can often take away unofficial community support networks even if it gets them better access to official ones. But the alternative for many of them is lack of access to medical care -- which is a serious problem in the North that's acknowledged by all levels of government and the media, and there's been decades of discourse about it with towns paying doctors tens of thousands of dollars to get them to sign 3 or 5 year contracts to stay.

Cuts to services, inconsistent services, and situations like this where a service gets implemented and then taken away again without a clear substitute, are an existential threat to Northern communities -- which have a fundamental right to exist and receive services, and it is the duty and obligation of all levels of government to provide these services. 30 years ago many towns in the North had passenger rail that now don't even have bus service. Outside of North America and especially in Europe, I don't think you would find quite as many people questioning the dollar value of providing rural services, and it would be talked about more correctly in a framework of cuts and government austerity, which is the elephant in the room here. If Ontario Northland wasn't constantly being faced with funding cuts and threats of privatization from both Liberals and Conservatives for absolutely no reason other than lack of regard for the North and the belief that privatization would have no significant political blowback for the province, they would be able to actually commit to serving regions like Manitoulin and the North Shore, as the people running the agency clearly wish they could. Then people would have time to get used to these routes existing and be more inclined to rely on them.

I was with you completely through the first two paragraphs; and the first part, of the first sentence of the third...........

But this bit, I'll take issue with Northern communities -- which have a fundamental right to exist

I must disagree with this. People have a right to exist, buildings do not.

That should not be construed as suggesting we tear out small towns willy nilly.

I would oppose that, for reasons I'd hope are obvious.

But as with the myriad of outports in Newfoundland that no longer have any economic raison d'etre; sometimes a place must largely fade into history as the burden of sustaining it makes no sense.

However, if that is the case, I would support a government buyout of said community at full market value; or cost of purchase, whichever is greater, and have the government eat the cost of removing superfluous buildings, roads and services.

In many cases such communities can and should be sustained for any number of strategic and practical reasons; and in those cases, essential service delivery is key to that enterprise.

But we can't extend that to every hamlet, as some have had their day come and go; perhaps more than a generation ago, and the cost/value of extending that further makes no real sense.
 
 
I was with you completely through the first two paragraphs; and the first part, of the first sentence of the third...........

But this bit, I'll take issue with Northern communities -- which have a fundamental right to exist

I must disagree with this. People have a right to exist, buildings do not.

That should not be construed as suggesting we tear out small towns willy nilly.

I would oppose that, for reasons I'd hope are obvious.

But as with the myriad of outports in Newfoundland that no longer have any economic raison d'etre; sometimes a place must largely fade into history as the burden of sustaining it makes no sense.

However, if that is the case, I would support a government buyout of said community at full market value; or cost of purchase, whichever is greater, and have the government eat the cost of removing superfluous buildings, roads and services.

In many cases such communities can and should be sustained for any number of strategic and practical reasons; and in those cases, essential service delivery is key to that enterprise.

But we can't extend that to every hamlet, as some have had their day come and go; perhaps more than a generation ago, and the cost/value of extending that further makes no real sense.

Many towns in the north began around either the railways or the resource industries. You don't see that anymore; new mines don't generate new permanent towns. If the mine isn't within a reasonable distance of an existing town, workers are housed in camps and cycle in-and-out on shift rotations, either by better roads than in the past or by company transport. The forestry industry is a bit different because the source product is more scattered - the mill only needed to be reasonably proximate.

The ebb and flow of a resource-based economy is a natural cycle and where they are 'one-industry' towns, the impact can be dramatic. Some come back with new 'finds', even after decades of decline
.
Areas such as Manitoulin, the North Shore and the Clay Belt are more agricultural and seem to be more consistent with general farming area trends. I don't know about Manitoulin, but the North Shore and Clay Belts (more accurately the more northern fringes) are experiencing a bit of renewal generated by Mennonite families selling their southern properties and moving north. They are also 'benefitting' from climate change. Certain crops that used to unsuitable because of the growing season are now viable.
I get the angst of older residents of small communities. I used to thrive in the concept of living 'back of beyond', but now the consideration of living closer to health care becomes an issue. Transportation is not yet a concern but no doubt will be in the future.
The issue with the Newfoundland outports was more dramatic, primarily because the way it was done. The government could no longer support the only means of transportation - the ferries. Imagine if the Ontario government announced it was abandoning the only road to an isolated community.
 
That's positive news for the North and us southerners who want to travel there. I suppose they'll need new train sets, as the older passenger cars, with VIA-like budgets for restoration surely can't still be up to the task?
 
That's positive news for the North and us southerners who want to travel there. I suppose they'll need new train sets, as the older passenger cars, with VIA-like budgets for restoration surely can't still be up to the task?

In the release, the CEO mentioned that "tracks were removed". I wonder what she is referring to, unless it is connecting tracks in NB that saved to train from having to run through the yard to get from CN to ON trackage.
The Northlander consist was similar to the Polar Bear Express; former GO single levels with APUs for power. I can't imagine they sold them. I have an acquaintance who works for the Commission and can ask.
 
^ Would be interested in hearing more if you could ask, particularly about the "tracks removed" part.
 

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