Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[micheal_can]

Umm. Why would you need Air Conditioning when it is -30 out as it will be plenty cold outside, so it will rely on the included heater. Air Conditioning is only needed when it is very hot, and, as I said, too much heat will rarely be much of a problem in the middle of the night.

Only the terminal O-Train stations have washrooms.

So, a major place where there are people transferring to other modes of transport?
Sounds like most of these stations.

Not since deregulation of intercity buses in Ontario.

https://www.ontariocanada.com/registry/showAttachment.do?postingId=36970&attachmentId=48376

Does not speak on permissions. Also does not link to the regulation that is in place.

And how is that ONR's responsibility?

Fair, but you still didn't answer how is this ONR's responsibility.

It is not the ONR's responsibility per se. However, the Municipalities Act is a provincial thing. So, it is basically various ministries working together to deliver the best outcome efficiently. Or are you happy to see one of these prefab buildings torn down and then a new, even more expensive building built as the one they put is did not meet the needs of he local users? I am not.

Every stop will have either a bricks and mortar station or a prefabbed station. Here is a list of stops and what type of facility it will have:

Stop	Structure
Toronto (Union Station)	Existing GO Station
Langstaff	Existing GO Station
Gormley	Existing GO Station
Washago	Prefabbed Stelter
Gravenhurst	Prefabbed Stelter
Bracebridge	Prefabbed Stelter
Huntsville	Prefabbed Stelter
South River	Prefabbed Stelter
North Bay	Existing ONR Station
Temagami	Prefabbed Stelter
Temiskaming Shores	Prefabbed Stelter
Englehart	Existing ONR Station
Kirkland Lake	Prefabbed Stelter
Matheson	Prefabbed Stelter
Timmins	Existing ONR Station
Cochrane	New ONR Station

First, Cochrane and Timmins are switched. Unless you have insider information that they are going to use the old Timmins Downtown station and will not be using the station in Cochrane that is being used by the PBX.

Also, yes,I know of these. And I am not hung up on 'prefab'. Many things are prefab these days. Even houses. In fact a few have been trucked in nearme and look as good as any other house. If they can have washrooms, why can't these?

Have you heard of locals complaining about this? The only person I have heard complaining isn't a local to any of the stops.

Most of the locals are not on forums like these. And, yes,I have heard locals complain.

 

[PinkLucy]

And I've heard locals who are thrilled. Both yours and mine are anecdotal evidence.

 

[micheal_can]

And I've heard locals who are thrilled. Both yours and mine are anecdotal evidence.

People are thrilled to get something back. That does not mean they are not critical of it too. In fact, there is a decent group who still won't believe it is coming back.

 

[lenaitch]

Does not speak on permissions. Also does not link to the regulation that is in place.

Yes it does, in para 3. The Public Vehicles Act and the Ontario Highway Transportation Board Act (the folks who managed inter-community bus transport) were both repealed

Also clearly stated here:

"Intercommunity service providers do not require a public vehicle operating licence. This includes vehicles from outside Ontario that are used to transport passengers into, out of, and within the province."

However, the Municipalities Act is a provincial thing

So you want the province to regulate municipal taxi licencing, or just in some communities?

Where a municipal taxi service exists, or may start to exist in response to the massive passenger load the train will create in places like Washago, South River and Temagami, they may see an economic opportunity to service the train at whatever hour of the night it may arrive. Or they won't. The government can't regulate a business to operate at a loss.

If these places are "intercity transportation stations", then so is every commuter parking lot at a 400-series highway, particularly those that a GO stops. They need buildings with washrooms and an espresso machine as well.

 

[micheal_can]

Yes it does, in para 3. The Public Vehicles Act and the Ontario Highway Transportation Board Act (the folks who managed inter-community bus transport) were both repealed

Also clearly stated here:

"Intercommunity service providers do not require a public vehicle operating licence. This includes vehicles from outside Ontario that are used to transport passengers into, out of, and within the province."

I did not see that. Thank you for point out where it is.

So you want the province to regulate municipal taxi licencing, or just in some communities?

Where a municipal taxi service exists, or may start to exist in response to the massive passenger load the train will create in places like Washago, South River and Temagami, they may see an economic opportunity to service the train at whatever hour of the night it may arrive. Or they won't. The government can't regulate a business to operate at a loss.

The nuances are not easy to type. The government should not be that heavy handed. It would be much like calling for a tender to build those stations. They could put out a call for a taxi service to meet the trains.

If these places are "intercity transportation stations", then so is every commuter parking lot at a 400-series highway, particularly those that a GO stops. They need buildings with washrooms and an espresso machine as well.

Woah, woah, woah... An espresso machine? That is too much, even for a GO station.

 

[lenaitch]

The nuances are not easy to type. The government should not be that heavy handed. It would be much like calling for a tender to build those stations. They could put out a call for a taxi service to meet the trains.

Explain to us how that would work.

A tender, RFP, "call", etc. is for something the issuer intends to pay for. Some, not all, municipalities issue taxi licences, but they are permissions to operate a business in the municipality (if there is no taxi bylaw, they might need a business licence, or nothing at all). The municipalities don't operate the taxi. If there is a business model for a for-hire service to whenever the train time is someone might start one, but you can't force it unless you are willing to pay for it.

 

[micheal_can]

Explain to us how that would work.

A tender, RFP, "call", etc. is for something the issuer intends to pay for. Some, not all, municipalities issue taxi licences, but they are permissions to operate a business in the municipality (if there is no taxi bylaw, they might need a business licence, or nothing at all). The municipalities don't operate the taxi. If there is a business model for a for-hire service to whenever the train time is someone might start one, but you can't force it unless you are willing to pay for it.

I'll start with the ones that have licenses and existing transit.
1) someone from the ONR meets with the city representative and their Transit representative. The ONR representative lays out the new schedule and asks the municipality if they can extend their transit to stop at the train station during the hours the transit already operates.
2) if the Transit does not stop there during the hours the train operates due to the train arriving in the hours the Transit does not operate, then the province gets a list of all licensed taxi operators. They then contact them and ask if they wish their information be advertised at the station.

For those without transit and have taxi licenses:
The ONR representative meets with the municipality representative. They get a list of all taxi companies licensed in their municipality. They then contact them and ask if they wish their information be advertised at the station.

For those without taxi licenses, but with established taxi services
The ONR representative meets with the municipality representative. They get a list of all taxi companies licensed in their municipality. They then contact them and ask if they wish their information be advertised at the station.

For those without taxi licenses, and no established taxi services
They put out a tender asking if someone would like to operate a taxi service to meet the train. It could be just an advertising opportunity or it could include some sort of government incentive to the driver of the taxi.

It would be an easy thing to have set up by opening day. A dedicated employee could be responsible for it.

 

[lenaitch]

I'll start with the ones that have licenses and existing transit.
1) someone from the ONR meets with the city representative and their Transit representative. The ONR representative lays out the new schedule and asks the municipality if they can extend their transit to stop at the train station during the hours the transit already operates.
2) if the Transit does not stop there during the hours the train operates due to the train arriving in the hours the Transit does not operate, then the province gets a list of all licensed taxi operators. They then contact them and ask if they wish their information be advertised at the station.

For those without transit and have taxi licenses:
The ONR representative meets with the municipality representative. They get a list of all taxi companies licensed in their municipality. They then contact them and ask if they wish their information be advertised at the station.

For those without taxi licenses, but with established taxi services
The ONR representative meets with the municipality representative. They get a list of all taxi companies licensed in their municipality. They then contact them and ask if they wish their information be advertised at the station.

For those without taxi licenses, and no established taxi services
They put out a tender asking if someone would like to operate a taxi service to meet the train. It could be just an advertising opportunity or it could include some sort of government incentive to the driver of the taxi.

It would be an easy thing to have set up by opening day. A dedicated employee could be responsible for it.

You mean like a bulletin board at the station? I have an even easier solution. Send an email or press release that says 'we're installing a bulletin board at each station stop - you are invited to post you schedule or phone number there'. Done. Folks could post bake sales and yard sales too.

For those without taxi licenses, and no established taxi services
They put out a tender asking if someone would like to operate a taxi service to meet the train. It could be just an advertising opportunity or it could include some sort of government incentive to the driver of the taxi.

You really don't get the concept of what a tender is.

The moment 'the government' offered a subsidy to one taxi company to service a station, every other taxi ompany at every other station would want the same treatment. Should VIA subsidize all of the local companies at the stations it serves?

The planned return of Northlander has been well publicized. I would suspect the current transit services are already talking about it or will be. As for taxis, its up to them as private businesses. If they are licenced and operate 24/7, why wouldn't they?

 

[micheal_can]

You mean like a bulletin board at the station? I have an even easier solution. Send an email or press release that says 'we're installing a bulletin board at each station stop - you are invited to post you schedule or phone number there'. Done. Folks could post bake sales and yard sales too.

You know how there are signs at major airports showing you where ground transportation is and what is served there? Something like that. A sign that points you where to wait and the phone number(s) to call. Not a bulletin board.

You really don't get the concept of what a tender is.

What is it called when the government seeks out private companies to serve something they want that may be paid by the government or may be paid by the person using it?

The moment 'the government' offered a subsidy to one taxi company to service a station, every other taxi ompany at every other station would want the same treatment. Should VIA subsidize all of the local companies at the stations it serves?

Via is federal. Could an argument be made? Of course, but it would fall on deaf ears of the province. Not their jurisdiction.

The planned return of Northlander has been well publicized. I would suspect the current transit services are already talking about it or will be. As for taxis, its up to them as private businesses. If they are licenced and operate 24/7, why wouldn't they?

Those talks should also be with the ONR so that it is best serving passengers.

 

[lenaitch]

You know how there are signs at major airports showing you where ground transportation is and what is served there? Something like that. A sign that points you where to wait and the phone number(s) to call. Not a bulletin board.

I used to drive for a ground transportation company at Pearson. I don't recall any wayfinding signage that posted specific identified companies; just "ground transportation", "out-of-town vans", "taxis", rentals, etc. Companies are identified at the actual dispatch/check-n counter, but they are paid for (staffing, rent, etc.) by the companies that use them. If there is signage identifying a specific private company, I suspect it is paid for by said company as part of their access fees. We paid fees, limos paid fees, not sure about taxis.

I can't image any difficulty at any of the Northlander stops, even the larger ones, for anyone to intuitively figure out where to wait. They ain't Pearson. They will be a road, a parking area, a small structure, and a set of tracks. Do the math.

What is it called when the government seeks out private companies to serve something they want that may be paid by the government or may be paid by the person using it?

For a product or service to be paid for by the government that isn't a standing agreement, then it is a tender, request-for-proposal, request-for-quotation, etc.

For a product or service to be paid by the user: Dunno, the government typically doesn't get involved in that and I can't think of an example. You know those blue and white 'attraction' signs along the highway pointing to venues, etc.? They are paid by the the advertised venue (including government entities) - and they aren't cheap.

Via is federal. Could an argument be made? Of course, but it would fall on deaf ears of the province. Not their jurisdiction.

That's the point you took from my statement? The point was, if the government was to subsidize a single taxi company, every other one would want the same treatment. If you ran a company, wouldn't you?

Those talks should also be with the ONR so that it is best serving passengers.

The timing, proposed schedule, station stops, etc. are (or will be) public knowledge. ONR's number is in the book if any company, municipality or transit authority wants to call them. I suspect some discussions, particularly in North Bay and Timmins, are already happening. If any municipality or company has no interesting in cooperating with ONR to serve their citizens, I'm not sure how that is ONR's responsibility.

 

[micheal_can]

I used to drive for a ground transportation company at Pearson. I don't recall any wayfinding signage that posted specific identified companies; just "ground transportation", "out-of-town vans", "taxis", rentals, etc. Companies are identified at the actual dispatch/check-n counter, but they are paid for (staffing, rent, etc.) by the companies that use them. If there is signage identifying a specific private company, I suspect it is paid for by said company as part of their access fees. We paid fees, limos paid fees, not sure about taxis.

I can't image any difficulty at any of the Northlander stops, even the larger ones, for anyone to intuitively figure out where to wait. They ain't Pearson. They will be a road, a parking area, a small structure, and a set of tracks. Do the math.

Pearson is an extreme example.
Let's use North Bay's station for the example. There should be a sign with "North Bay Transit" and route numbers/names listed in the waiting area that is obvious and easy to see that points you to where the bus stop is. At that bus stop, there should be a schedule. There should be an arrow point where the taxis wait. At that door should be a list of taxis that serve the station and their numbers so you can call one.

For a product or service to be paid for by the government that isn't a standing agreement, then it is a tender, request-for-proposal, request-for-quotation, etc.

For a product or service to be paid by the user: Dunno, the government typically doesn't get involved in that and I can't think of an example. You know those blue and white 'attraction' signs along the highway pointing to venues, etc.? They are paid by the the advertised venue (including government entities) - and they aren't cheap.

Those advertising signs are more of what I mean for the taxis. They pay for it, or the government pays for it depending on what is best fort he local area.

That's the point you took from my statement? The point was, if the government was to subsidize a single taxi company, every other one would want the same treatment. If you ran a company, wouldn't you?

The subsidy would be the indication that they exist and serve the station. Not paying for the ride.

I am pissed that North Bay is getting a daily train and Sudbury won't. Does that mean I should start whining to the province? Or to Via? Or should I accept that neither cares unless it gets the votes.

The timing, proposed schedule, station stops, etc. are (or will be) public knowledge. ONR's number is in the book if any company, municipality or transit authority wants to call them. I suspect some discussions, particularly in North Bay and Timmins, are already happening. If any municipality or company has no interesting in cooperating with ONR to serve their citizens, I'm not sure how that is ONR's responsibility.

A well thought out project should not be having people who want to be part of it to actively be contacting them. Imagine if the subway line being built had the companies who want to set up a show in the lobby to be required to have to ask the transit company if there will even be a retail area. I don't know about you,but all the projects early on show that is going to happen and have a way to contact them if they want to be a part of it.
So, when calling the ONR tomorrow, what is the extension for a taxi company being given the opportunity to advertise their name at the new stations being built?

 

[marcus_a_j]

I don't follow this thread too closely so apologies if this was already posted. Staff Report went to Durham Region Planning and Economic Development Committee last week regarding a business case for a stop in Beaverton:

https://pub-durhamregion.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=4338

 

[lenaitch]

Once more unto the breach . . .

Pearson is an extreme example.
Let's use North Bay's station for the example. There should be a sign with "North Bay Transit" and route numbers/names listed in the waiting area that is obvious and easy to see that points you to where the bus stop is. At that bus stop, there should be a schedule. There should be an arrow point where the taxis wait. At that door should be a list of taxis that serve the station and their numbers so you can call one.

I thought you were talking about the shelter stops. I would suspect NB and Timmins will have those. NB might already have taxi reference information (I've never walked around it) and would likely have transit information if they return. I'll betcha taxis will magically appear around train time.

Those advertising signs are more of what I mean for the taxis. They pay for it, or the government pays for it depending on what is best fort he local area.

And maybe ONR, the municipality, Chambre of Commerce, etc. will pony up a few bucks for some signage. That's a long way from proposing that the government subsidize a taxi company.

The subsidy would be the indication that they exist and serve the station. Not paying for the ride.

Not my interpretation of what you were previously proposing.

I am pissed that North Bay is getting a daily train and Sudbury won't. Does that mean I should start whining to the province? Or to Via? Or should I accept that neither cares unless it gets the votes.

Whine to your heart's content. I get the sense they may already have you on file.

A well thought out project should not be having people who want to be part of it to actively be contacting them. Imagine if the subway line being built had the companies who want to set up a show in the lobby to be required to have to ask the transit company if there will even be a retail area. I don't know about you,but all the projects early on show that is going to happen and have a way to contact them if they want to be a part of it.
So, when calling the ONR tomorrow, what is the extension for a taxi company being given the opportunity to advertise their name at the new stations being built?

And do any of us know that this has not been happening behind the scenes, simply because they didn't call Michael? Keep in mind, we are talking about a couple of actual station buildings in a couple of communities that have actual transportation options. Most station stops will be shelters in communities that have little to none, other than the personal auto. And, yes, we know you want buildings with facilities. Keep lobbying. The term 'white elephant' comes to mind.

I do not know the extension. Try 1.800.363.7512 and listen to the options. I don't know if there is a singular project office. Pretend you are a taxi.

 

[micheal_can]

Once more unto the breach . . .


I thought you were talking about the shelter stops. I would suspect NB and Timmins will have those. NB might already have taxi reference information (I've never walked around it) and would likely have transit information if they return. I'll betcha taxis will magically appear around train time.

All stations should have everything existing that is around for transportation. The larger stations would obviously have more than the smaller ones.
Back before cell phones, NB station did have a direct line taxi phone. No indication for city buses even back then.

And maybe ONR, the municipality, Chambre of Commerce, etc. will pony up a few bucks for some signage. That's a long way from proposing that the government subsidize a taxi company.

It is, and for most places, if not all, that would be all that is needed. The question is whether that has even been discussed. That is what I am talking about.

Not my interpretation of what you were previously proposing.

Too many people read way deeper into what I want. I am not expecting that a taxi is government run or government paid for. I am expecting the owners of the station make all efforts to ensure the passengers are aware of the options. That could be as simple as a sign with the name and phone number for the local taxi.

Whine to your heart's content. I get the sense they may already have you on file.

You'd be surprised how little I have contacted them. I know they are shackled to their ways.

And do any of us know that this has not been happening behind the scenes, simply because they didn't call Michael? Keep in mind, we are talking about a couple of actual station buildings in a couple of communities that have actual transportation options. Most station stops will be shelters in communities that have little to none, other than the personal auto. And, yes, we know you want buildings with facilities. Keep lobbying. The term 'white elephant' comes to mind.

I would expect these kinds of things would be made public. I would expect when they have done it, they would make an announcement something to the effect that passengers will be able to board local buses or that local transportation options will be available at stations.

I do not know the extension. Try 1.800.363.7512 and listen to the options. I don't know if there is a singular project office. Pretend you are a taxi.

I would just show u hoping for a fare. I would also email a general inquiry email address and ask. The question should be why is that necessary?

 

[lenaitch]

Too many people read way deeper into what I want.

You're right. Perhaps I have been misunderstanding you all along, and perhaps I am the only one . . . but I suspect not.

I would expect these kinds of things would be made public. I would expect when they have done it, they would make an announcement something to the effect that passengers will be able to board local buses or that local transportation options will be available at stations.

And perhaps they will be, in time. 2026 is a long way out. The little point in saying anything that is still in discussion.