Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[gweed123]

You could simply change the name, and then it is good.

I am not sure what the issue with the current agency is. I thought the problems are the desire of the governments to get rid of it.

That could work too. How the agency comes about (or is modified) is really secondary to what its scope should be.

 

[micheal_can]

That could work too. How the agency comes about (or is modified) is really secondary to what its scope should be.

Most Ontarians may feel it needs to drastically change. Reality is, if you rebranded it as inter city transit run by the province, made it a subsidiary of MTO, and then laid out the various corridors, you would have another level above GO. These aren't major changes, but they would drastically change how the corporation works.

 

[dowlingm]

But then there is:
downloading highways to the cities
mega cities/amalgamation
Stopping the construction and burying the Eglinton Subway
Highway 407
Closing schools
Cutting back snow plowing services

In short, all 3 parties have a history of doing harm. Makes choosing one this year painful.

I only referred to the notion that "Queens Park people are smart" rather than, as you point out, stating that an Ont PC or Ont NDP government would make better choices.

 

[micheal_can]

I only referred to the notion that "Queens Park people are smart" rather than, as you point out, stating that an Ont PC or Ont NDP government would make better choices.

Well, I was pointing out that none of the politicans in Queens Park for the better part of 30 years have been very smart.

 

[gweed123]

Most Ontarians may feel it needs to drastically change. Reality is, if you rebranded it as inter city transit run by the province, made it a subsidiary of MTO, and then laid out the various corridors, you would have another level above GO. These aren't major changes, but they would drastically change how the corporation works.

Exactly. Intercity for much of it, but serving a little bit of a commuter function in the Ottawa and London areas. Start with lines that already have existing stations and trackage (SW Ontario for example), and then expand to lines where tracks are sub-par or have been ripped out completely (a portion to Pembroke, for example).

 

[micheal_can]

Exactly. Intercity for much of it, but serving a little bit of a commuter function in the Ottawa and London areas. Start with lines that already have existing stations and trackage (SW Ontario for example), and then expand to lines where tracks are sub-par or have been ripped out completely (a portion to Pembroke, for example).

It would be nice to get to Thunder Bay and Sault St Marie by rail. They should connect those to Winnipeg. That is a key link in the north that is missing.

 

[lenaitch]

The (former) ROW from Ottawa to Pembroke runs through Quebec which complicates - but not precludes - provincial ownership. A passenger connection between Thunder Bay has merit - the Canadian used to go through TB when it was on CP trackage and it is its nearest 'big city'. The Sault Ste. Marie area really has no affinity to Winnipeg - it's 1400 km, about double what it is from Toronto.

 

[micheal_can]

The (former) ROW from Ottawa to Pembroke runs through Quebec which complicates - but not precludes - provincial ownership. A passenger connection between Thunder Bay has merit - the Canadian used to go through TB when it was on CP trackage and it is its nearest 'big city'. The Sault Ste. Marie area really has no affinity to Winnipeg - it's 1400 km, about double what it is from Toronto.

A line between Winnipeg - Thunder Bay - Sault St Marie - Sudbury - North Bay - Ottawa would work well for the North.

 

[lenaitch]

A line between Winnipeg - Thunder Bay - Sault St Marie - Sudbury - North Bay - Ottawa would work well for the North.

Wpg to TB - CP mainline. TB to Franz (jct CN Soo sub) - CP mainline. Franz to SSM - CN low speed. SSM to NB - shortline low speed. NB (Mattawa) to Ottawa - nothing.

Much of this (Wpg to Sudbury) mimics the former Canadian route until CP wanted no part of it (I understand they argued - successfully apparently - that their original charter mandated that they operate their network "efficiently" and passenger service impaired that. I could be mistaken). The Canadian's big problem is on-time performance because they are subordinate to long freights. That would be no different regardless of who's mainline they are on. I have read that Amtrak does a much better job running on freight lines. I can only assume that is at least partially because their federal gov't funded the necessary infrastructure improvements

 

[micheal_can]

Wpg to TB - CP mainline. TB to Franz (jct CN Soo sub) - CP mainline. Franz to SSM - CN low speed. SSM to NB - shortline low speed. NB (Mattawa) to Ottawa - nothing.

Much of this (Wpg to Sudbury) mimics the former Canadian route until CP wanted no part of it (I understand they argued - successfully apparently - that their original charter mandated that they operate their network "efficiently" and passenger service impaired that. I could be mistaken). The Canadian's big problem is on-time performance because they are subordinate to long freights. That would be no different regardless of who's mainline they are on. I have read that Amtrak does a much better job running on freight lines. I can only assume that is at least partially because their federal gov't funded the necessary infrastructure improvements

What really is needed in this country is some sort of law that passenger trains must be a priority. It'll never happen, but it should.

 

[lenaitch]

What really is needed in this country is some sort of law that passenger trains must be a priority. It'll never happen, but it should.

Equality would be a good start. The railways own the property and business and are looking out for their bottom lines. Any legislation attempting to level the playing field would have to be backed up by tax dollars. Many don't believe in doing that outside of the GTA/GTHA/whatever other acronym bubble is being used these days.

 

[dowlingm]

There were (at least) two rail corridors through the Ottawa Valley. Didn't the CP Chalk River Sub stay on the Ontario side?

 

[ShonTron]

There were (at least) two rail corridors through the Ottawa Valley. Didn't the CP Chalk River Sub stay on the Ontario side?

Up until the 1990s, there were three railways serving the Ottawa Valley:

- The CP Chalk River Sub, which made up part of the original Transcontinental route from Montreal to Vancouver (Port Moody). with stops in Pembroke, Renfrew, and Arnprior. It was pulled up between Mattawa and Smiths Falls in 2012.

- The CN Beachburg Sub, which was the old Canadian Northern Line. It went from North Bay through the north part Algonquin Park to Pembroke and Beachburg, across the Ottawa River to Quebec for a bit, then back across into Ontario to Ottawa. Between North Bay and Pembroke, it was abandoned in 1995, from Pembroke to Ottawa, rails were pulled up in 2015.

- The CN Renfrew Sub, which was the old Canada Atlantic Railway between Ottawa and Depot Harbour (near Parry Sound), which later became part of the Grand Trunk system. It went through the south part of Algonquin Park, stopping at Eganville, Renfrew, and Arnprior. It was abandoned in stages from the 1930s through the 1990s, though a small part remains in use to serve industry in Arnprior.

 

[dowlingm]

Up until the 1990s, there were three railways serving the Ottawa Valley:

- The CP Chalk River Sub, which made up part of the original Transcontinental route from Montreal to Vancouver (Port Moody). with stops in Pembroke, Renfrew, and Arnprior. It was pulled up between Mattawa and Smiths Falls in 2012.

- The CN Beachburg Sub, which was the old Canadian Northern Line. It went from North Bay through the north part Algonquin Park to Pembroke and Beachburg, across the Ottawa River to Quebec for a bit, then back across into Ontario to Ottawa. Between North Bay and Pembroke, it was abandoned in 1995, from Pembroke to Ottawa, rails were pulled up in 2015.

- The CN Renfrew Sub, which was the old Canada Atlantic Railway between Ottawa and Depot Harbour (near Parry Sound), which later became part of the Grand Trunk system. It went through the south part of Algonquin Park, stopping at Eganville, Renfrew, and Arnprior. It was abandoned in stages from the 1930s through the 1990s, though a small part remains in use to serve industry in Arnprior.

I just had a look at Renfrew and it looks like the former CN Renfrew comes close to the CP Chalk River alignment, such that in theory they could be connected as an Ontario-only alignment. There just doesn't seem to be the will to do so, presumably partly on feasibility, partly on getting access east of Arnprior, partly on the communities along the line demanding only "nice" uses (no CP oil trains), and partly because of negotiating a regulatory minefield.

 

[lenaitch]

I just had a look at Renfrew and it looks like the former CN Renfrew comes close to the CP Chalk River alignment, such that in theory they could be connected as an Ontario-only alignment. There just doesn't seem to be the will to do so, presumably partly on feasibility, partly on getting access east of Arnprior, partly on the communities along the line demanding only "nice" uses (no CP oil trains), and partly because of negotiating a regulatory minefield.

The CN Refrew Sub ROW is fairly old and most likely ownership is long lost, especially through Renfrew and Arnprior. In addition, there are several bridges that would no longer be serviceable. CP Chalk River and CN Beachburg actually interchanged in Pembroke. I have no idea of the ownership status of these ROWs. All moot - the infrastructure is no longer there.

Railways in Canada and elsewhere are 'common carriers', meaning they cannot refuse any legal lading. They don't really care what province they go through since they are federally regulated. The lack of corporate will be these line was demonstrated when both carriers abandoned them as surplus. I suppose the federal government could spend billions to rebuild a Via line for maybe a train a day but unicorns haven't been sighted yet.