Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[lenaitch]

I made a similar suggestion before.

An admittedly cursory view suggests that using the Barrie-Collingwood track to access the #400 ROW, follow that to #11, and use the #11 ROW to just north of Orillia before returning the old alignment looks fairly workable.

Obviously not cheap, many overpasses would require replacement, but with a couple of minor pinch points it doesn't look like it would require vast property acquisition.

Of course its a still a less direct route than the original ROW, and there are real questions about cost; but I think they at least merit exploration.

The BCR heads west from Barrie, Hwy 400 north then northwest and Hwy 11 north. In order to swing around behind Barrie (you would have to go west - the east side of Barrie and Orillia is lake) involves several significant grades, a provincially significant wetland and a built-up area (Midhurst). And of course, buying up a lot of land. With the amount of land they would have to purchase, it would probably be financially (but certainly not politically or logistically) easier to re-establish the old ROW. There would also be the matter of the ROW within Orillia and at Casino Rama. All of this for a low frequency passenger run. It would be cheaper to fund more or longer passing tracks on the Bala sub.

 

[Northern Light]

The BCR heads west from Barrie, Hwy 400 north then northwest and Hwy 11 north. In order to swing around behind Barrie (you would have to go west - the east side of Barrie and Orillia is lake) involves several significant grades, a provincially significant wetland and a built-up area (Midhurst). And of course, buying up a lot of land. With the amount of land they would have to purchase, it would probably be financially (but certainly not politically or logistically) easier to re-establish the old ROW. There would also be the matter of the ROW within Orillia and at Casino Rama. All of this for a low frequency passenger run. It would be cheaper to fund more or longer passing tracks on the Bala sub.

I suggest using the BCR only as far as the 400 ROW which is already in public ownership, and mostly wide enough to accommodate track w/o new land acquisition. (one or two pinch points do exist).

The cost in my scenario is not land, but altering the highway w/in the ROW and replacing one or more overpasses to allow for clearance.

 

[micheal_can]

I still think, they they ran a 7 days schedule, timed it right, and used the route it did before it ended, it would do well.

Even if they reduced that "$400/passenger subsidy", it would still do well.

 

[lenaitch]

I suggest using the BCR only as far as the 400 ROW which is already in public ownership, and mostly wide enough to accommodate track w/o new land acquisition. (one or two pinch points do exist).

The cost in my scenario is not land, but altering the highway w/in the ROW and replacing one or more overpasses to allow for clearance.

Sorry, I interpreted your post as using the BCR to run west around the city. If you mean just follow it from Allendale until it crosses Hwy 400 within the city (about a km and a bit) then run up the highway, there is barely room for the highway through the city let alone anything else (and not considering the land required for a west to north transition). Although I haven't bothered to look for any public plans, they are slowly replacing all of the bridges north of Toronto, probably because they are near end of life (and Barrie growth) but the new ones appear to accommodate more lanes. Just from observation, I have no clue how they plan to add lanes between Dunlop and St. Vincent, especially at Bayfield. The highway is completely hemmed in, let alone thinking of adding a rail ROW.

If you are thinking of some other routing, you're going have to show me a map because I'm not seeing it.

I still think, they they ran a 7 days schedule, timed it right, and used the route it did before it ended, it would do well.

Even if they reduced that "$400/passenger subsidy", it would still do well.

I agree, but as mentioned by others, freight conflict on the CN mainline remains a problem. Longer passing tracks might help but, of course, that would be a public expense.

 

[TOareaFan]

I still think, they they ran a 7 days schedule, timed it right, and used the route it did before it ended, it would do well.

What does “do well” mean

Even if they reduced that "$400/passenger subsidy", it would still do well.

Don’t you have that backwards? If they “do well” the passenger subsidy would reduce. Isn’t the subsidy a “solve for”? revenue - expenses = profit.....if profit is a negative number you have an annual subsidy.....divide that by the number of passengers and there is your number.

 

[Rainforest]

^ Moreover, if the number of passengers goes up, the absolute value of the needed subsidy goes down because the revenue is up. Expenses are fixed for the most part (maintenance of tracks + stations + trains, and employee salaries).

 

[dowlingm]

I agree, but as mentioned by others, freight conflict on the CN mainline remains a problem. Longer passing tracks might help but, of course, that would be a public expense.

ONR ran 12 weekly services over the CN up to pretty recently. The province has added track as part of the Richmond Hill expansion. It could add a bit more I suppose, but ideally the Feds would make at least a token contribution since that could also potentially help Canadian.

 

[micheal_can]

Sorry, I interpreted your post as using the BCR to run west around the city. If you mean just follow it from Allendale until it crosses Hwy 400 within the city (about a km and a bit) then run up the highway, there is barely room for the highway through the city let alone anything else (and not considering the land required for a west to north transition). Although I haven't bothered to look for any public plans, they are slowly replacing all of the bridges north of Toronto, probably because they are near end of life (and Barrie growth) but the new ones appear to accommodate more lanes. Just from observation, I have no clue how they plan to add lanes between Dunlop and St. Vincent, especially at Bayfield. The highway is completely hemmed in, let alone thinking of adding a rail ROW.

If you are thinking of some other routing, you're going have to show me a map because I'm not seeing it.



I agree, but as mentioned by others, freight conflict on the CN mainline remains a problem. Longer passing tracks might help but, of course, that would be a public expense.

"Do well", as in, the train would be full, or near full and worth having.

Sadly, I currently don't live close enough to the corridor to use it. I live in Sudbury. I would love to take the train on the weekends down to Toronto, but that is not possible. Even here, with Via's Canadian train, it runs every 2 days, and is always late, sometimes by as much as 12 hours.

What does “do well” mean

Don’t you have that backwards? If they “do well” the passenger subsidy would reduce. Isn’t the subsidy a “solve for”? revenue - expenses = profit.....if profit is a negative number you have an annual subsidy.....divide that by the number of passengers and there is your number.

That is why the $400/passenger argument doesn't make sense.

 

[TOareaFan]

"Do well", as in, the train would be full, or near full and worth having.

At what speed, frequency and ticket price would you get trains full or near full.....because that impacts your other premise that:

That is why the $400/passenger argument doesn't make sense.

 

[micheal_can]

At what speed, frequency and ticket price would you get trains full or near full.....because that impacts your other premise that:

The old schedule sucked on many levels.

Same speed. 7 days a week schedule, overnight train the further north. A full train would mean less subsidy. So, that could mean that the tickets could stay the same price, but actually sell more because the schedule is better.

 

[TOareaFan]

The old schedule sucked on many levels.

Same speed. 7 days a week schedule, overnight train the further north. A full train would mean less subsidy. So, that could mean that the tickets could stay the same price, but actually sell more because the schedule is better.

sorry, are you saying that the only thing that stood in the way of trains being full and subsidy being reduced was that it only ran 6 days a week rather than 7?

I have heard others say it was the speed of the service (I only ever took it as far as Huntsville and 3 hours was tolerable for me but others complained it was too long at too high a price to attract passengers)....but surely if the answer to the low ridership was simply running it one more day a week then it would not require that much investment and since you are convinced it would fill the trains then maybe we should do it!

 

[micheal_can]

sorry, are you saying that the only thing that stood in the way of trains being full and subsidy being reduced was that it only ran 6 days a week rather than 7?

I have heard others say it was the speed of the service (I only ever took it as far as Huntsville and 3 hours was tolerable for me but others complained it was too long at too high a price to attract passengers)....but surely if the answer to the low ridership was simply running it one more day a week then it would not require that much investment and since you are convinced it would fill the trains then maybe we should do it!

I took it between North Bay and Toronto. You could not get back on a Sunday. Which means using it for weekend trips was out of the question.

 

[TOareaFan]

I took it between North Bay and Toronto. You could not get back on a Sunday. Which means using it for weekend trips was out of the question.

so just adding Sunday service (adding the 7th day) would have fixed all their problems....absolutely amazing that they never figured that out!

 

[micheal_can]

so just adding Sunday service (adding the 7th day) would have fixed all their problems....absolutely amazing that they never figured that out!

Exactly! Fix the schedule and people will use it. If people use it, then it becomes viable.

 

[TOareaFan]

Exactly! Fix the schedule and people will use it. If people use it, then it becomes viable.

I am just amazed that "fix the schedule" just meant adding a 7th day....if that is all we needed to do to fill the trains and dramatically reduce the subsidy level I am shocked none of the smart people at Queens Park never saw that before.