Ontario Northland/Northern Ontario Transportation

[Urban Sky]

Anyone know which of the business case service models 3 trains lends itself to? Could they operate the 2x daily service with that?

Edit: it appears they are going with the seasonally adjusted service pattern.

Not sure what the “seasonally adjusted service pattern” is, but the plan was to have a once-daily overnight service with a meet half-way between North Bay and Timmins/Cochrane, which would mean that the third set is held as a spare:

https://www.ontarionorthland.ca/sites/default/files/corporate-document-files/UIBCen.pdf?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=%2Fen%2Frelease%2F1002600%2Fontario-taking-next-steps-to-bring-back-northeastern-passenger-rail&utm_term=public&utm_source=newsroom

 

[micheal_can]

So no need for a wye if the train terminates or drops into Timmins.

That is a good solution to the area they want the station(s) at.

Does every train have to double as commuter train? The Canadian doesn't stop south of Washago either. Like any long distance passenger train, particularly in Canada, I would suspect the timing would be inconsistent enough to be inconvenient for anybody making commuter-type plans.

Think of it as also being places for more people to get on and off to go north, or to come from the north.

 

[Garuda]

This is excellent news. I hope ON and the government also see the benefit of a Daily Toronto-North Bay service. And with a cost sharing agreement with Metrolinx to allow riders from Gormely to take the train to Toronto mid day.

I was just thinking- What about service to Sudbury via North Bay? Sudbury is the largest metro area in northern Ontario and already has a downtown station (VIA). I know ON doesn’t own the tracks west of North Bay but such a service with business amenities could do well.

It would take longer than the current bus service but with more space to move around.

 

[JMSRead]

This might be an ignorant question, but are those travel times considered slow for train travel? I love the project, but it's a shame that it's not particularly faster than driving.

 

[micheal_can]

This might be an ignorant question, but are those travel times considered slow for train travel? I love the project, but it's a shame that it's not particularly faster than driving.

The fact that is is faster than the Canadian between Sudbury and Toronto is a good start.

I was just thinking- What about service to Sudbury via North Bay? Sudbury is the largest metro area in northern Ontario and already has a downtown station (VIA). I know ON doesn’t own the tracks west of North Bay but such a service with business amenities could do well.

It would take longer than the current bus service but with more space to move around.

Short answer... the reason this is coming back is because it is on government owned tracks (North of North Bay) and they are returning service that was cut. The Canadian used to run along the route you suggest from Ottawa and was run by Via.

 

[Garuda]

So no need for a wye if the train terminates or drops into Timmins.


Does every train have to double as commuter train? The Canadian doesn't stop south of Washago either. Like any long distance passenger train, particularly in Canada, I would suspect the timing would be inconsistent enough to be inconvenient for anybody making commuter-type plans.

With logic like that VIA shouldn’t stop at Oshawa, Guildwood, Oakville, and aldershot either.

Not everyone is going downtown and having one stop in the northern GTA makes a good transfer.

 

[reaperexpress]

This might be an ignorant question, but are those travel times considered slow for train travel? I love the project, but it's a shame that it's not particularly faster than driving.

Forget faster than driving, it's not even faster than the current ONTC bus. This is why the business case is looking at an overnight service.

From page 27 of the business case:

During the daytime, the train would provide little improvement over an existing express bus. But for overnight trips speed is less important since you'd want to sleep for 8 hours anyway. Instead, comfort becomes more important, which is somewhere the train has a big advantage since its larger size makes it practical to provide much more space per passenger.

Ideally, they should be offering some sleeping accommodations such as beds or at least lie-flat seats, which would attract some customers who would be dissuaded by spending the night in a chair, and can afford a higher ticket price. But I'm not sure how much sleeping accommodations they are actually planning, if any, given that the fleet they're purchasing only has 3 single-deck coaches per train.

 

[reaperexpress]

Does every train have to double as commuter train? The Canadian doesn't stop south of Washago either. Like any long distance passenger train, particularly in Canada, I would suspect the timing would be inconsistent enough to be inconvenient for anybody making commuter-type plans.

To clarify: we aren't talking about the train making every stop along the way, we're just saying that a fare agreement with GO could provide some useful departures for a small number of commuters, at no cost to ONR as long as the number of GO passengers is lower than the number of ONR passengers who want to board/alight at those stations anyway.

2021 Richmond Hill line schedule, showing Northlander service as described in the intial business case.

I discussed this in an earlier post in this thread:

The business case states that Metrolinx and ONTC will work together to deliver the (south portion of) the service. It would be cool if in exchange for waiving track fees on Metrolinx tracks, ONR would accept GO tickets between Gormley and Toronto. That would be similar to how Coaster commuter rail tickets are accepted on Amtrak trips between Oceanside and San Diego.
View attachment 364797

The number of GO passengers using the ONR train would probably be fairly low, since the ONR trips will be be outside of the peak periods, only stop at two RH line stations, and the RH line is not that busy to begin with. So the GO passengers on the trips might be low enough to equal the number of ONR passengers getting off at Gormley and RHC/Langstaff. It would be a neat addition to the Richmond Hill line's span of train service.

Current Richmond Hill line schedule, showing Northlander service as described in the business case. ONR departure times are based on 12h20 travel time to Cochrane, with a1-hour connection time to the Polar Bear train. Southbound Polar Bear would be shifted 1 hour earlier to improve southbound Northlander departure times for northern communities.
View attachment 364798

This fare agreement would allow one Union-Langstaff GO bus trip per direction to be cancelled. The existing Union-Bloomington bus trips would remain.

It would be nice if the train stopped at Bloomington rather than Gormley, to get some more use out of that severely overbuilt station and provide better access to Aurora and Newmarket. But it's possible that the benefits of the station over Gormley are not sufficient to justify the cost of connecting the north end of GO track to the mainline (it currently dead-ends at the station).

 

[Bordercollie]

News release just landed in my inbox:

NEWS RELEASE Ontario Taking Next Steps to Bring Back Northeastern Passenger Rail​ Province investing in new rail cars as part of its plan to connect communities and unlock economic opportunities in the north December 15, 2022 Ministry of Transportation

NORTH BAY – The Ontario government is purchasing three new trainsets as part of its plan to bring back northeastern passenger rail service. The $139.5 million investment marks a significant milestone in reinstating service between Timmins and Toronto, and unlocking the full economic potential of northern industries, resources and minerals. “This is a significant step forward in bringing back the rail service that northerners deserve,” said Stan Cho, Associate Minister of Transportation. “The reinstated Northlander train will support our northern industries and resource sectors and provide a safe and reliable transportation option for Northern communities, especially in the winter months. This purchase demonstrates real progress, as we continue to take concrete steps to build a better transportation network for the north.” The new rail cars will be built by Siemens Mobility Limited and will meet the latest EPA Tier 4 emission standards, making them one of the most environmentally friendly diesel locomotives on the market. The fully accessible fleet will include built-in wheelchair lifts, mobility aid storage spaces, galley style food services and fully accessible washrooms. “People and businesses in Northern Ontario rely on a safe, convenient transportation network to get where they need to go and to keep our goods moving,” said Caroline Mulroney, Minister of Transportation. “The reinstatement of passenger rail service will ensure access to essential services like health care and education, while supporting economic prosperity and tourism in the region.” The trainset interiors will also feature spacious seating and modern amenities, including Wi-Fi connectivity and passenger information systems with audio and visual announcements. Once reinstated, northeastern passenger rail service will be offered from four to seven days a week, based on seasonal travel demands.

Quick Facts​ Ontario Northland Transportation Commission’s Northlander Passenger Train discontinued service in 2012. Ontario Northland currently operates four buses daily between Toronto and North Bay, and one to two buses daily from North Bay to Timmins and Cochrane. In April 2022 Ontario Northland Transportation Commission released the Updated Initial Business Case which included a preferred route from Toronto to Timmins with a rail connection to Cochrane. Cochrane will provide a connection to Polar Bear Express service to Moosonee. By 2041, annual ridership is currently estimated to be between approximately 40,000 and 60,000. Detailed design will focus on the route that includes 16 stops: Toronto (Union Station), Langstaff, Gormley, Washago, Gravenhurst, Bracebridge, Huntsville, South River, North Bay, Temagami, Temiskaming Shores, Englehart, Kirkland Lake (Swastika), Matheson, Timmins and Cochrane. The new locomotives will meet EPA Tier 4 emissions standards and are equipped with particle filters reducing 95% of particles and 89% of Nitrogen Oxide emissions.

Quotes​ "This purchase is a key next step to support the Province and Ontario Northland's target of a mid-2020s in-service date for reinstating Northeastern Passenger Rail. The rail service will provide passengers more access to safe, reliable transportation options when traveling between Northern Ontario and Toronto." - Chad Evans Interim President and CEO of Ontario Northland Transportation Commission "As part of our plan to build Ontario, our government is proud to be making this investment to help bring the Northlander back to the North. Passenger rail supports families, tourism, manufacturing jobs, innovation and economic growth, all while keeping the people of Ontario connected. As the long-time voice for this vital service, it's an absolute pleasure be part of a government that is bringing passenger rail back to Northern Ontario, once and for all." - Vic Fedeli Minister of Economic Development, Job Creation and Trade, and MPP for Nipissing "Our government recognizes how important it is for Northerners to have reliable and convenient transportation options. We know that when people and goods can move freely, communities prosper. I am confident that today's investment will result in better economic and health outcomes for residents across the North and I feel that this signals true progress to returning services which should have never been discontinued." - Greg Rickford Minister of Indigenous Affairs, Minister of Northern Development, and MPP for Kenora – Rainy River "This is a great next step for the future of rail transit in Northern Ontario. The return of the Northlander train will directly benefit communities in Parry Sound-Muskoka with four convenient stops, allowing people more options to get home, to work, to medical appointments and to experience the beauty of the North." - Graydon Smith Minister of Natural Resources and Forestry, and MPP for Parry Sound-Muskoka "The people of Timmins and northern Ontario are ecstatic about our government bringing back the Northlander rail that was discontinued in 2012. These communities need another affordable transportation option that connects them to the rest of the province and provides access to goods and services in other regions. This is an essential transportation corridor in northern Ontario that supports the entire economy because the movement of people and workers is critical for the resource sectors including mining and forestry." - George Pirie Minister of Mines, and MPP for Timmins

Additional Resources​ Northern Rail Updated Initial Business Case More about passenger rail in the North

Two trainsets in rotation with no spared?

No baggage cars?

Makes sense since they will need to be services with TMC which is already getting chargers for VIA.

 

[Allandale25]

^ it says three are being purchased.

 

[Bordercollie]

^ it says three are being purchased.

That makes sense

 

[Allandale25]

More Ontario Northland news.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Here is the layout of the Northlander trainset, from Yourtv North Bay.

Plus front facing shot:

 

[cplchanb]

Here is the layout of the Northlander trainset, from Yourtv North Bay.

View attachment 445517
Plus front facing shot:
View attachment 445518

so its essentially a piggyback order or they just bought a few of Via's options.
its surprising that theres business class

 

[SaugeenJunction]

so its essentially a piggyback order or they just bought a few of Via's options.
its surprising that theres business class

Just saw this on Siemens Mobility’s Facebook page. It’s evidently a standalone order.